Difference between FMF and FMSS

[Theldron1]

I'm sorry in advance for my ignorance, please be gentle and understand it is just that, ignorance.What isthe difference between FMF and FMSS? I think I know but I don't want to assume anything that I *THINK* I know when I can ask people who actually do know.

[Da-Chief]

Hey not a problem, usually the Nurses are the ones who get this one screwed up.

:P

FMSS=Fleet Marine Service School (5 weeks long what you have to do before you can serve with a FMF Unit).

FMF=Fleet Marine Force, The unit which you are assigned and also were you earn your FMF Warfare Device/Pin.

Hope this helps!
Da-Chief is outta here!
Go SOX!

[DocVermin]

Might as well complicate the issue further, when you graduate FMSS you'll be an FMST (field medical service technician).

[Theldron]

lol well that muffed it all up :P

[Doc Wendt]

As an FMST you're now an 8404, or is that "old school"?

[Poolzer]

Yes, after FMSS, you are an 8404, the largest populated NEC we have.

[puckmedic]

With an 8404 tag on you, you are essentially screwed. No matter where you go, what you do they can snatch you up and drop you off in Dodge City with out so much as a kiss.

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

Yea, I just "screwed" my 8404 HM2 with a $15,000 lump sum, tax-free reenlistment bonus. I’m screwing another HM2 with orders to jump school and a seat in OEMS.

However, we all know the "Needs of the Navy" take priority over individual career desires. Yes, 8404 does have a predisposition towards work on the green side, but you might want to recon the area:
[] You do not need an 8404 to be sent off to the Marines without a kiss. In fact you didn't even need to be a HM to get "volun-told" to be a Devil Doc. I know HM & DT just merged and can fill each others shoes now, but DT's have been shipped off to go with the Marines when it was time to go play war and a HM wasn't readily available.

[] HM/DT with NEC HM-0000/DT-0000 will be assigned to Marine Corps support units and train for NEC HM-8404/DT-8707 when local unfilled requirements exist.

[] 8404 & 8707 who just completed 3 years with the Marines, are entitled to 1 tour away from the Marines.

[] Boards are looking for deployments. Credit is given to good Evals and personal recognition earned in a combat zone. There are also more opportunities to demonstrate your value to the service and take care of the warriors who rate it the most. Iraq (OIF), Afghanistan (OEF), Djibouti (HOA) -- Next month will be 5 years since the opening kick-off and if you haven't been in the game yet, some people are going to wonder why you like the sideline so much.

[] "Some" FMF and SeaBee slots are just as air conditioned as non-8404 jobs. For instance, the wing doesn't play in the mud as much as the grunts and even the grunts have a few slots like Safety Corpsman at the swim tank. Not to mention the instructor positions at places like FMSS or MCMWTC.

[] The HM/DT merger is only Phase I of a much larger plan to consolidate 14 medical NEC's down to 5 NEC's and outsource at least 4 other NEC's to the civilian sector in Phase II. Phase III will likely involve additional consolidation and outsourcing of HM NEC's. Thinking aloud without any inside knowledge, I might be incline to say contractors and civilians are going to replace many HM jobs in a manner similar to what has already occurred in other ratings/duties. You won't see civilians humping a pack with the Marines or running sickbay on ship, but the vast majority of shore billets can be outsourced (CONUS & O-CONUS) rather easily. The Navy as a whole, to include Navy Medicine (officer & enlisted), WILL BE DOWNSIZING over the next few years. There will also be a transition away from branch specific medical service(towards a DoD Medicine, instead ofNavy Medicine)

[] Different things motivate different people. Few things would make me consider trading my 15 years in the mud for a different career path.


Make no mistake. If the Navy decides they want an 8404 to go do something, then that 8404 will be sent to go do it; but that holds true for any NEC or rating. In fact, since Reservists are required to report their civilian employment information, some sailors have been mobilized and deployed so the Navy can take advantage of their civilian skills and this trend is expected to increase in the future -- 8404 or no 8404.

Besides, I like walking out of aircraft in flight, camping with the boys, blowing crap up, and having the Marines pick up my bar tab.....

[puckmedic]

The originalresponse was deleted by me. I decided to not share after all my experiences with the USMC.

Know this, I loved my guys. I just had something happen that created animosity between me and a FS a SGT maj and the XO/CO. A situation mushroomed while on deployment regarding my daughter and the four of them were unsupportive as hell. It was sort of common for them, in matters like medical readiness and I adapted my strategies accordingly, and sucked it up. This was different, this was personal. I was asked what kind of "F'd up family " I had by all four of them. Not a word about support or can we do anything? So go be loyal to the system, I was and look what it got me when I NEEDED THEM MOST.

I would like to address however the concept that perhaps I sat on the side lines.

Don't even begin to lecture me on deploying. I saw enough ocean under my feet to know that I stood my time, and I deployed more than your average HM. In fact, don't lecture me at all, I already graduated and the schooling is over.

You're more than welcome to waltz your view point on down to west TN and gaze admiringly at my shadow box, and my two walls of certificates, plaques and awards, just please if you got to, drool into a cup.

Not impressed yet, try the letters of appreciation written by family members of guys Iworked on, the child I saved from a sinking car, and my favorite: the one from a mother who thanked me for doing all I could for her son and his wife, but they died any way.

My comment was tongue in cheek and I got a multi- paragraph lecture? How about one of them $15,000 checks for time suffered?

SEMPER FI- Yeah I guess so, SURE WHY NOT. fourguys don't make up the whole group but they soured me on any more rides on the green track.

[sundaysinner77]

How long must a Corpsman serve before given a chance to put in for Instructor duty at FMSS or duty at MCMWTC?

[puckmedic]

not so much time as it is a pay grade thing. I think FMSS instructor duty required a 2nd class with at least 2 years in grade. Not sure about the the other place (warfare training in Quantico?) .

[sundaysinner77]

MCMWTC: Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center up in Bridgeport, Ca.

Trained there for summer. Good place and an awesome duty station.

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

Puckmedic -- In all honesty, my comments were written more for the third party viewer reading the thread than any sort of direct response to you, so please do not take it personally.

Service with the FMF can be difficult, but it can be extremely rewarding as well. And let’s face it, the “Needs of the Navy” override anything and everything a person at the individual level wants to do regardless of the rate they hold or NEC they carry. It really doesn’t matter what uniform you wear or what job you have, bad stuff can happen everywhere. Hell, how many recruits complain about getting screwed by the recruiter. Or even better, they were getting screwed in the civilian world so they joined the military. The chance of getting screwed certainly doesn’t stop once you retire or rejoin the civilian ranks. (How many retirees lost their benefits when the airlines declared bankruptcy? How many employees, retirees, and investors did a couple guys at Enron screw?)

At the same time, we both know there are plenty of deployment dodgers in the military. I was not implying you were one of them, but we have both run across them during our careers. I know you did numerous deployments and were involved in some pretty hairy shit prior to your retirement. I want the guy hiding in the clinic to come out and play so the Doc’s that have already been there can get some relief. I want they guy contemplating his future to realize a deployment is necessary if wants his career to go anywhere. I want the guy with the cake job to realize he might be getting outsourced and will end up deployed on the Navy’s terms instead of his own.

You got screwed. You got screwed by a dirt-bags at home and several idiots wearing cammies at sea and it sounds like these two groups really screwed you and your family hard. However, that does not mean 8404 is screwed. I apologize for the misunderstanding caused by my post, but I want to make it clear that what happened to you was not caused by your service with the FMF and I do not want your comments about how 8404 are screwed to discourage motivated Corpsman from stepping up to the plate when they are needed.

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

[BILLY_SEMPER FI]

I have some quick questions...I just got out of 8404 and I despaerately want to go to Jump school and dive school...Is there an age limit for these schools? I just turned 30...Do I have to be attached with Force Recon to go? Since I am a reservist would they let me go? Advice def. is needed!!

Thanks!!

[puckmedic]

I know that. If people saw the screwed comment, it was a simple joke but not intended to be really serious. Like "UH OH no you did it" . I saw the PM and yeah I'm a hot head as I freely admitted to you. I'm going to give here my view on the life in cammies: It's ok no need to censor it!!! :D

Folks, 8404 is a different world.Like Chief Clark says it can be rewarding as all get out. My guys fromthe lowest rank to the highest rank on the enlisted scale, the warrant officers and most of the 2nd and most of the pilots respected me. Some merely tolerated me. Point is, I was accepted. It was a fun time at times. Don't ask me about HILL AFB, I can't tell any lies! Just know we had such fun, we tried to figure a way to start a MCAS there!

Yet sometimes as life happens so does pooh.

I got caught up in a situation where I was not supported. Could it happen on blue side deployed? Yes, blue side clinic and shore commands? OH yeah. So, if it does happen, don't be like me and accept it. Look at going higher, filing grievances and a real attention getter, "Dear Congressman,state Representative".

My point children, (now listen to granpappy Lee real close), is this: It wasn't FMF or the entire USMC that caused me the bitterness you witnessed above. It was four people initially. One LTCOL, Maj, LT (MC, FS, USN) and a SGT Maj. Later there was a Capt (MC,FS, USN) added to the list.

Should I have responded to chief's long post? Probably not the way I did. However, I did and can not take it back. I can tell you this, I am an absolute hot head. When feeling offended I do one of two things, I let it eat me alive or I chunk rocks. Normally chunking rocks back, results in me realizing I judged too quickly.

This was one of those times. Chief Clark and I have settled it, and I really respect the guy for a trillion reasons. However, the reason I fired a rocket at him was because I feel I must defend myself. See back when the pooh fell on me in Beaufort, I was intimidated. I guess we now all know that is not the case any more.

DO NOT LET MY COMMENTS ABOUT MY UGLY EXPOSURE TO THE FIVE IDIOTS ABOVE SWAY YOU -- OH GOD PLEASE NO!!! If you do, you will miss out an an experience that will shape you, make you a better leader, better health care provider, better person. It is different afterwards.

I rememebr prior to it, telling Marines I was a corpsman. After my time, telling Marines I was a DOC. The difference being after I was done in Beaufort SC, telling them I was a DOC told them, some one called me DOC meaning I earned it, that I was one of them.

Public apology tendered.

Now for the folks who want to know 8404 better here goes. The NEC opens up a world of opportunity. There are so many different billets to fill. Each one will make you feel like you are doing something with your life. You will be more independant, more self aware and assured. You will EARN that three letter word "D O C".

You will not earn it if you don't deserve it. You need to be involved, active and dedicatd to the health and safety of your guys and girls. When's the last time any of you HN's were allowed to make a decison other than your lunch order in a clinic?

Doesn't it bother you to know that most deployed or have been deployed HMs look at you and really have no use for the "have seat the DR will be with you soon" robots you've become? To me, that's not only boring, its mind numbing, creates laziness and doesn't let me sleep at night with any sense of purpose.



FMF life, you're making decisions on a person's care plan, what meds you want to use and why. Patient education is a big part of it, and don't worry, there's always some one with a little more experience there with ya. Some one like me (if your lucky BIG GRIN!!!) hopefully. If that HM2 or HM1 isn't doing his job (teaching you) Let me know and I'll kick his tail section til the rotors fall off.

If it's a chief that ain't helping you grow, well he's failing at his first charge: To mentor and guide subordinates to become the next group of leaders. If he's at burn out phase, gently ask him when he's retiring. Because he needs to.

Want to jump from airplanes? drive a tank? shoot off more rounds in a day then most HMs see in a lifetime (well maybe not any more but peace time its true)?

GO FMSS to a fleet unit!!! As you wander through the land of green, you will be called many things. When they mess up and say "OK corpral or SGT, instead of your rank or DOC- you'll know they see you as one of theirs.

On retrospect I think the SGT MAJ was following orders and really shouldn't be on my list. (sorry just writing as I think about it).

I loved my guys, really I did. I still keep in touch with some. Please everyone, do not allow what happened to me when my daughter was raped, tricked into testifying in court, and the subsequent crap that happened to me and mine and my bitterness towards the four officers (sorry SGT Maj), make your mind up for you. If it did, I have done you and the USMC and...

MY Hospital Corps ...

a disservice.

GET OUT OF THE CLINIC, stop doing office work. Deploy and earn some self respect, and the respect of those around you. Then one day you can be a 44 yr old person who can look back and say

"Nothing I ever do from here on will mean more to me than being called DOC. Nothing will ever top the satisfaction I got from this job I've done the last 20 years. Nothing is as important to me, than the knowledge that there are people alive today because of me or my teams. I am grateful to have served and as some of the people I taught small lessons to, go forth in a war, I hope the hell I gave them enough knowledge and that they listened. It has been honor to have earned my "DOC" title, I'll wear it every day for the rest of my life and never forget who I am or where I walked... among the very best of this country"

That was the very lastportion in my retirement speech. Over 200 hundred people showed for that day. To be honest I think half of them were there to verify I was actually leaving! :P


VR

Dennis E Lee

HM1 (AW) USN (RET)

puckmedic@corpsman.com (mailto:puckmedic@corpsman.com)

puckmedic@yahoo.com (mailto:puckmedic@yahoo.com)

pgrcagerdoc@hotmail.com (mailto:pgrcagerdoc@hotmail.com)

[combatdoc]

Hey Chief, I might have already asked this, but why didn't we get an FMF device/pin back in the 70's?

[combatdoc]

Hey Chief, I might have already asked this, but why didn't we get an FMF device/pin back in the 70's? The only thing I have is on my DD 214 showing where I served.

[puckmedic]

Hey, long time no see. How's the time share biz?

I think the whole FMF ribbon came into being in the early 80's but not sure of the reasons behind it. There's all sorts of "warfare designators' now. Used to be subamrines and seals were the only ones. Then all hell broke loose and everyone wanted a qualifier.

I'm still waiting for the Musician's warfare designator" for all the musicians. Now there's a rate we could do with out.

[robby]

Feel kinda funny replying to this since I was not FMF. I have always said that HMs that went to FMSS and then did a tour either with the wing or the grunts made better over all HMs. I think that their medical knowledge and patient care was way better than someone that never got out of the wards. Just my .02cents.

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

combatdoc wrote: Hey Chief, I might have already asked this, but why didn't we get an FMF device/pin back in the 70's? The only thing I have is on my DD 214 showing where I served.

FMF Device (mini-EGA): If you saw combat with the Marines in the 70's, then you should rate the "Fleet Marine Force Combat Operation Insignia " on your campaign medal per SECNAVINST 1650.1G. The device is authorized for recognized FMF combat ops since WWII approved by the CMC. For the 70's: Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal & Vietnam Service Medal.


FMF Ribbon: SECNAVINST 1650.36 authorized the "Fleet Marine Force Ribbon" starting 01 Sep 1984 and I do not believe there is a grandfather clause, so its a No-Go for 1970's service. Eligibility for enlisted personnel to earn the FMF Ribbon was withdrawn in July 2000. Eligibility for officers expired in Dec 2005. The FMF Ribbon is no longer awarded, but previous recipients may continue to wear it.


FMF Pin: This is a No-Go for 1970's service too. Per OPNAVINST 1414.4, the "Enlisted Fleet Marine Force Warfare Specialists" began in Jul 2000 with absolutely no grandfather clauses for anyone. As of Jan 2006, officers can now earn their pin per OPNAVINST 1414.6, "Fleet Marine Force Qualified Officer".

[HM3_JD]

What's wrong with the MU rate? I was looking at crossing over (yes, I was VERY frustrated with my command at the time, going in and only sitting infront of a computer for my ENTIRE drill weekend!)
My instructor in high school and college was a MUC (I think, may have been a MUCS). I need to get back in touch with him since I started playing again.. it's a great stress reliever.

Besides... do you want those AF pukes messing up Anchors Aweigh?

[puckmedic]

No but does the MU rate really need to be an actual rating? Let's see practice all day, shine trombone go home, work on master's degree in music appreciation.Man don't that beat all? Mme and my shallow gene pool roots, I got no musical ability and as such was denied a life of suchluxury. I am very sad now...

[DevilDoc]

Hey there,

I haven't been on in a while, but just was looking things over, after having got an email that we lost another HM over in the sand. I have been a bit busy as of late. Anyway, just wanted to share a couple things, regarding some stuff I read on here.

As far as the warfare device/pin goes....it was a pin. Everyone got it who went to FMSS, but now that's changed. Now it's a device and you have to take a bunch of classes and learn some stuff and take a test and sit for a board, etc etc. You have to be assigned to the Marines for two years before you are eligible to sit for your board. At least that's the story on the Reserve side. If you had the ribbon before, It DOES NOT qualify you for hte warfare device, you have to earn it in the above mentioned fashion. It's a lot of work.

Anyway, on to being an 8404 corpsman....now they are making all corpsman go straight from A school. At least that is what I was told. In addition, if any corpsman want any C schools, they have to attend FMSS first and graduate to get a seat and keep it in the C schools. So soon enough, you will be seeing many more corpsman with this NEC, hence the reason it is fastly becoming the fullest NEC in the Navy...requirements for other schools!

As for being an 8404 Corpsman, as one, I can honestly say, there are worse gigs than this one! I love being on the Green side. I wouldn't trade it for those Working whites...ever! No matter how much A/C they get and how much mud I have to crawl in or sleep in. Most of the time, the Marines treat you awesome! There are the few dirt bags who don't know how to treat their "Docs", but we have ways of getting even....and even on the blue side, you find the dirtbags who don't know how to treat Corpsman either. It's everywhere. Remember, we all signed the contract. Whether we chose to go blue or green, what happens after that, we put ourselves in that situation to begin with. Maybe it was the right decision, and for others it was the wrong one. It's a lesson learned. Alot of good things can come out of being with the Marines. You definately learn alot. And I know from experience, we are far better Corpsman than those on the blue side, because we have to opportunity to really be "Docs". Nothing better than the respect you get, from being called "Doc". Gotta love it.

Sempre Fi,

Devil Doc

[puckmedic]

When I went through FMSS no FMF ribbon was awarded. That was 1993. Are you saying they now give it upon completion of school and if so, can it be granpappy'd to us old timers? If so, How can I get my DD214 ammended?

HMC-FMF- PJ- I think it's time for your area of expertise, which is looking up instructions to ensure we get it all right. I would love to be able to call myself FMF but hey if not I can still call myself grandpappy.

[puckmedic]

Just so you know for clarification I am talking about the RIBBON not the latest greatest warfare device. Any one got a numbe rfor a decision maker on this matter? I'll call them and ask. I ain't skeered.

[DevilDoc]

Puckmedic,

Not a 100% sure what it is you are looking to find out. Hopefully this answers your question: The Ribbon is no longer available to be earned. They used to give it to you when you finished FMSS. Not any more. Those who have it, can wear it, however this does not mean you automatically get the Warfare device. That's a completely different thing, you have to take the classes and sit for boards. Sooo, they are no longer giving out the Ribbon. If you have it, you are authorized to wear it. You cannot trade in your Ribbon for the Warfare Device, you have to test and go through boards. Did that clarify, or was it something else you were trying to get an answer to? I wasn't to certain.

DevilDoc

[DevilDoc]

Puckmedic,

Just saw your other post, if they weren't giving it out in 1993, then they had already quit doing it by then. If they didn't give it to you then, there was no grandfather clause.

DevilDoc

[DevilDoc]

Puckmedic,

I do have the phone number for Field Medical Service School in Camp Pendleton, I can pass it along if you are interested in calling them for further clarification.

DevilDoc

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

puckmedic wrote: When I went through FMSS no FMF ribbon was awarded. That was 1993. Are you saying they now give it upon completion of school and if so, can it be granpappy'd to us old timers? If so, How can I get my DD214 ammended?



The "Fleet Marine Force Ribbon" was instituted on 01 Sep 1984 and eligibility for enlisted personnel to earn the FMF Ribbon was withdrawn in July 2000.

The FMF Ribbon was never awarded for simply graduating FMSS or earning NEC 8404.

To earn the FMF Ribbon, Sailors must have served with the Marines for one year and passed the Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test and basic skills tests. The skill test was based on the Marine Battle Skills Training Handbook, but that handbook has since been replaced by the Marine Corps Common Skills Handbook.

The above requirements may be waived by the awarding authority in cases where Navy personnel demonstrated exceptional skill, knowledge, and leadership while providing support to the Marine Corps in a combat environment with concurrence of CMC/CNO.

Only Marine Corps battalion/squadron commanding officers were authorized to award the Navy Fleet Marine Force Ribbon. There are no subsequent awards and no citation or certificate was issued. Commanding officers were to make appropriate service record entries for enlisted personnel, and issue letters of eligibility for officer personnel.

FMSS is not the decision maker and I do not think they would be able to help (other than friendly advice). If you could track down an old FMF CO for a signature, I suppose you could forward that info for a Service Record correction and change to your DD-214.... Otherwise, I think you are going to be SOL without proof of having already jumped through all the hoops...

REFERENCE:
SECNAVINST 1650.1G - Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual, page 4-15
5. Navy Fleet Marine Force Ribbon
Authorization. SECNAVINST 1650.36 of 1 September 1984.

[popsie]

I just found this site. I'm a grunt doc from the 70's. I even volunteered for it. It was an option back then. A decision, I never regretted. I was stationed at Pendleton when thew refugees arrived from vietnam. I never saw combat, but got to play alot. My favorite times in the Navy was being attached to the Marines. I learned a lot. I only spent 4 1/2 years in the Navy, but I don't regret it. What I learned as a corpsman has helped me in civilian life as a Paramedic. I've been a street medic since 1980 and wouldn't trade it for anything. I owe it to what I learned from being a Navy Corpsman. I had the magic nec combination that would keep me FMF forever. I was a 8483/8404. Reading your posts brings back a lot of memories and feelings being a young pup. Things I see haven't really changed. semper fi formerly HM3 bruce 8483/8404

[Da-Chief]

Hey now , it's always HM3 Bruce, none of this formally crap. Once a "Doc" always a "Doc..

Welcome home..

Da-Chief

[puckmedic]

The way it sounded was the FMF RIBBON was given at completion of FMSS. I was just checking to see what could be the case if I some how missed it and they never told us. It happens all the time.

I had a campaign medal awarded but no one ever let us know we got it. then one day it just showed up in our service records. Figured this was the same sort of miscommunications.

No worries, I didn't want the thing bad enough then, and I sure don't want to try to qualify now in my old age. Exactly what is the qualifying time for a 44 yr old limping old guy with a crutch?:P:D:shock: