SRB for 8404 [Archive] - Scuttlebutt Forum by Corpsman.com

MAWDoc

03-09-2007, 05:25

Hopefully this answers your question:

Selective Reenlistment Bonuses (SRB) exist as incentive to attract personnel toward entering or staying in an undermanned rating or NEC. There are some other factors that play into targeting zones for specific paygrades, but I'll not complicate the issue...
That being said, please note that there are a TON of HM 8404s in inventory, because a lot of HMs go through FMSS and earn the NEC, then move on to another NEC, such as Lab Tech, and never actually use/fill the HM 8404 billets.

According to the last billet inventory posted in February 2007, there are 5,572 billets that exist and must be filled by HM 8404s. The Navy's inventory of HM 8404s is currently 7,084. This is 127% of the required manning, and therefore, does not meet criteria for the award of SRB.

While we know that there are several HM 8404s who have this as a secondary NEC to say, Rad Health Tech or CardioVascular Tech, and will never actually be assigned to the FMF as an HM8404 primary, they still carry the NEC and count against the total inventory.

This is a large contention at BUMED and BUPERS and is currently being scrutinized to both identify a true reflection of the available/detailable HM8404s, and one corrective measure has already been phased in, where HMCMs, HMCSc, and HMCs who have the NEC as a secondary, and have not served in the FMF in 5 years, have had it dropped, and no longer carry the 8404 NEC. It is my understanding that this will continue through the ranks over the next few years until there is an accurate depiction of available Field Corpsmen.

The other factor that plays into the equation was the merger of Dental Technicians into the HM rating, which essentially flooded the 8404 field with 8707 techs.

Patience...it's being fixed.

S/F
Chief

Socrates_TMNP

03-11-2007, 07:30

I got five grand last year for a six year reenlistment because I held the 8404 NEC.

0311_DoC

03-11-2007, 14:01

yea but did you have to stay with the green side? or a program 9 billet???

Socrates_TMNP

03-11-2007, 14:34

No I was selected to special duty that required me to hold the 8404 NEC.

DOC_Newt

03-22-2007, 07:44

Hey schirling_rules, to answer your question, about one third of all Corpsman in the Navy are 8404 compaired to about half being 0000 the rest are a mixture of other NEC's. The Navy makes about 400 or so 8404's about every 3 months or so, now all the other NEC's have a far less out put from the specialty training schools that create these NEC's on top of this the HM's that hold certain NEC's can make much more money in the civilian world doing the same job, so the Navy will give them a bonus to stay in. But with 8404's we can't get out and go to a hospital or what ever and say "I was an 8404 Field Med Tech" and get some great paying job they want qualifications before they hire. So what I am saying is that the Navy sees 8404 Field Med Techs as being expendable, which means no SRB unless you are re-enlisting to go Recon, or some other highly needed NEC or billet that 8404 is a requirement.

GruntCorpsman

03-28-2007, 12:49

Schirling, the way I see it is this. We, as green side 8404s, are the bastard children of the military. The Navy loves to have us fill a much needed billet with the Marine Corps, but essentially forgets about us once we are attached to one. Any corpsman attached to a line company can attest to the fact that if you do not have an on the ball SMDR, you can get lost in the shuffle in the eyes of the Navy. The Navy will think about you twice a year, for your evals and for your PT score, otherwise you are on your own. The Marine Corps, on the other hand, is thrilled to have you because you allow them to get the job done and it requires very little of them in terms of paperwork and money. So, the Navy doesn't want to deal with you because you are attached to the Marines, and the Marines don't want to pay you because you are Navy. Sounds pretty bastard child to me. It is the same complaint that I had when I was in, however in 2006, when I got out, they were offering E-5 8404s $15,000 for a 6 year reserve contract plus a kicker, so it does happen on occasion. Like most things, you just have to know where to look and be in the right place at the right time.

schirling_rules

04-09-2007, 09:47

hey everybody, thanks for the good info. It is certainly a frustrating situation when all your grunts are getting 45-50 grand to renlist, and you say " Hey what the F*%# I'm a grunt too". I hope they Navy readjusts their policies to accurately depict who are actually "real" 8404s and who are hospital bunnies flooding our NEC. Even in the 8404 community there is a huge difference between a corpsman serving with a line company in an infantry battalion and one who is doing sickcall at MedBattalion or buying kerlex at MedLog. Maybe the Navy will realize that one day, and yes, I agree with you we certainly are bastard children.

Da-Chief

04-09-2007, 10:13

Schirling,

Medlog, BN etc.. all 8404, what happends when you have to get orders and that is all there is for greenside? You all are serving with the Corps. Don't give me the Line crap vs, Air etc..

I agree with the hospital analogy though. But serving is serving.

V/R
HMC

DOC_Newt

04-10-2007, 11:03

I'm not sure how it is in the Chief's community but for the E-5 and below it is not hard to get orders to a MAR DIV trust me, when I was up for sea duty all I could chose from was 1st, 2nd, or 3rd MAR DIV, that is all that was open except for Okinawa and I wasn't going to volunteer for duty in Oki. So yes schirling_rules has a right to call out all of the Band-aid counters at Medlog, Med BN guys who think a field op is setting up a GP large on the front lawn of their BAS, and lets not forget the Wing in all of this I would like to see one of them strap on a 50LB pack of gear plus 4 1000ml IVs and all of the med gear that you need for a 35 man platoon, and then carry it for 16 miles with out getting a real break. So Chief don't give me the “it's all greenside” crap Division is tougher than other duty. I'm not saying that any duty with the jars is easy but if you want to skate you don't go MAR DIV.

HM2 (FMF) NEWTON

Schirling,

Medlog, BN etc.. all 8404, what happends when you have to get orders and that is all there is for greenside? You all are serving with the Corps. Don't give me the Line crap vs, Air etc..

I agree with the hospital analogy though. But serving is serving.

V/R
HMC

Da-Chief

04-10-2007, 11:09

DOH!!

Ok have either of you served in either function? Air or MEDLOG? Have you?? I have.. I have done Division, as well was Air..

Your right 2 different missions, While I agree the Division duty was more mentally and physically taxing.. Are you saying the Marines who serve Air, or MEDLOG aren't real Marines??

What would you call them?? If you still call them Marines and they still are a part of the FMF, then why the hell would you not call "DOC's" who serve there the same?

Get my drift, This is not about which job is harder, I am just trying to say that they are "ALL" a part of the FMF and should rate 8404 unless it is changed to 8404-D (Division) 8404-A etc..

Now.. If your a 8404 who was picked up the NEC years ago and have been stuck in a Hospital or Clinic etc.. it should be stripped. I think you should have to do a 8404 tour every sea tour.. Just me.. there are only 800+ sea billets on ships for HM's.. so I am just a bit perplexed by my brethren who never seem to be able to "GO GREEN" but end up at Hospitals overseas etc..

Chief

DOC_Newt

04-10-2007, 11:23

Chief, I see your point as well and I do consider those Marines to be Marines for the most part they have the same mind set and that is to get the job done no matter the cost. And maybe 8404 should be subdivided like 03s are considered the backbone of the jars maybe DIV HMs should be considered the backbone of 8404s. I'm just saying that I've work very close with Medlog, Med BN and Wing and yes they do have some goood HMs but they also have some of the nastiest HMs that i have ever seen with the Marines, have you ever heard "Nasty Navy" they don't get that from DIV Docs.

dustmans

04-10-2007, 11:27

Chief,

I don't agree with the 8404 being stripped when they go to a clinic, not with the amount of clinic/hospital guys being pulled to go forward lately. An AVT going to a supposedly cush clinic job is usually pulled the first year he’s there because he’s on a platform that’s asking for set amount of AVT’s and in reality, there are fewer then the number they are asking for on shore duty. Might as well stick with being green if you’re going to get pulled anyway (and you don’t have to deal with the piles of physical paperwork:)

Go to the Hospital Corps ball out here, there are more purple hearts then you can shake a stick at (which is sort of spooky if you think about it).

DOC_Newt

04-10-2007, 12:30

I see Dustmans point on this, but if you read my first post on this matter the bottom line is that big Navy sees the 8404 HM as being disposable, seeing that they do not offer an SRB to 8404s no matter where they are stationed. They also don't seem to mind that the MAP (Medical Augment Program) being abused as much as possible, since I have arrived on "Shore Duty" I have seen over 30 people deploy to various missions, and I saw the same thing while I was with the Green Side, I mean we had like 3 guys that had just finished a 3 year tour with Division get MAPed right back over to the unit that they had just left 6 months prior, and they were supposed to be on "Shore Duty" at the clinic. I've seen friends of mine leave for "Shore Duty" get MAPed and not come back it is a sad reality but I guess it's the way it's going to be and us E-5 and below are feeling the effects of this. I think that when big Navy started wanting to down size they forgot about the fact that Corpsmen provide the Marines with their medical assets so we as a Hospital Corps are getting smaller while the Marines are getting larger, and I plan to ask the Force Master Chief this he comes to my area.

Socrates_TMNP

04-12-2007, 18:43

Newt I agree that grunt corpsman are some of the most skilled doc's I have worked with, however I really hope you don't seriously believe that by just being a grunt doc makes you golden. There are doo doo heads everywhere, believe that! I do believe that HM's after assigned to shore duty should have a FMSS refresher though.

DOC_Newt

04-16-2007, 15:43

I don't believe that I have ever said that being 8404 makes you golden trust me I know that no matter where you go you will find turds and if I could I would flush them all, and the refresher would be a good idea, heck I need to PT the shore time off of myself I'll tell you the truth. the whole point to this is should 8404 Green side Corpsman rate a SRB, and I feel that the answer is yes if they meet a certain criteria, like a certain number of deployments or time deployed over the past 3 or 4 years, and my reason is that the Marines that they serve with and go to combat with are getting SRBs, my last year working with the Marines I saw 0311s Basic Infantry getting SRBs, but like I said before big Navy sees the 8404 HM as being easily replaceable, so no I'm not hyping anyone in anyway I'm just saying that big Navy should look at giving SRBs to those that are out there doing the job.
Newt I agree that grunt corpsman are some of the most skilled doc's I have worked with, however I really hope you don't seriously believe that by just being a grunt doc makes you golden. There are doo doo heads everywhere, believe that! I do believe that HM's after assigned to shore duty should have a FMSS refresher though.

schirling_rules

05-07-2007, 11:39

wow, this certainly got pretty heated. I'm sorry, Chief, but I disagree with you. While Marines are Marines anywhere in any capacity, I agree, there is a reason we call them Pogues. It's an us and every one else mentality. I am not arguing that those jobs aren't vital, but I don't like my NEC being linked with some guy who spends a whole "deployment" on TQ or Al Asad. They're not walking the streets. Thats why Pogue Marines don't get such a great SRB, the Corps recongnizes it's grunts. If it's all the same, why do we study different manuals for the FMF pin when you are Wing, MLG, and DIV. There should be a distinction. I'm not saying grunt Corpsman are infallible, I have plenty of of buttheads, but the fact remains they are doing a tougher job. Newt had a point about it should be a seperate NEC. 8404-D, 8404-W, 8404-M. They are all a world apart.

Da-Chief

05-07-2007, 21:29

Schirling, Nope this is why we have the board to discuss things and maybe someone with some "BACKBONE" can change it to what is right..
Anyways.. this is the most current manning levels for the NEC's..
Don't shoot the messenger..
Well that didn't work.. let me add it as a attachement..

Da-Ol-Chief.

0311_DoC

05-08-2007, 03:27

old navy

05-08-2007, 03:56

SRBs are based on manning levels. The more appropriate incentive to ask about when the Force Master Chief visits is Special Duty Assignment Pay. You get the money while you are in the qualifying area then it stops. It's also payable with other incentive pays like sea pay, combat pay, jump pay, dive pay, whatever. An SRB is paid for the term of the re-enlistment. Let's say that HM2 Benotz re-ups for 4 years, does one tour in Iraq in those 4 years and never deploys again. He is getting an SRB based on one event. It can't work that way.

crazycajun

05-08-2007, 08:51

After reading these posts I have to tell myself to calm the hell down before I reply. Need to collect my thoughts....Then again I've only served with the Marine Corps for the Past 10 years and in different capacities....So, stand by when I actually reply to this one because I have my thoughts.

schirling_rules

05-08-2007, 14:42

these have all been great answers. I uderstand the way the system works, and I bet it makes plenty of sense at levels of understanding much higher than my own. And please, nobody take me the wrong way. I meant no disrecpect to Corpsman doing great work with Wing and even MLG. If you read this month's issue of Seapower magazine, my Battalion LPO HM1 (FMF/SW) Houchins has an article written about him where he makes a point that I agree with. I for one love being a grunt Corpsman. It's a hard, crappy job, but I take great personal sastifaction out of it. I want to stay in that field. But there are lots of grunt Docs that end up going to Rad School, Pharm school, Surg T school etc. for the sole reason that there is a great SRB. They want nothing to do with those fields, and will end up being semi- miserable about doing it, but they have a family to think of. Of course, our job isn't about just money, Corpsman are supposed to be selfless, but it is difficult to explain to your wife and family your reason for wanting to stay with the infantry and keep deploying over and over and never get an SRB, when you could go to a C school, most likely stay in the hospital, and get a fat check. That just seems wrong to me.

crazycajun

05-09-2007, 09:56

Ok now that I have composed myself, and I'm not going to tell people to get a colonoscopy to see if their head is missing in a very dark space.

Here's the deal. The thought was once that 8404 HM's are no more than 0000 HM's with training in Marine Corps ways. (BTW when I was shipbaord this is what I thought and i also thought 3 years on board a ship and spending a total of 6-9 broken months in port during that entire time sucked.) Therefore expendable as are 0000's. This is no longer the case. We have the right personnel in the right places and they are looking at this process. They are talking about making many changes to the FMF HM community, remember currently talking about. So, future SRBs maybe something that comes from this. Who knows, though you still have to support the outcome.

The differences between the FMF HMs, if you haven't been on all sides of the fense then you are talking from your back side. Take it from someone that has served with the Division, the MEF and the Wing. Each and every FMF HM regardless of who you serve with, pays a price. Yes, being with Division you are kicking doors down, though maybe not with Group/Wing though they do supply EOD with HM's for bomb disposal. Group/Wing HMs also ride in convoys just the same and face those dangers also. Again, they may not be kicking in doors, though they have to sleep near fuel bladders and be exposed when refueling aircraft/vehicles at remote locations and do so sometimes under mortor fire which is just as hard to defend yourself from. Keep things in perspective, each job is difficult, just in different ways.

When in Garrison everyone has down time and the work isn't hard. That's why Line HM's sit in their barracks when in Garrison playing their prefered Video Games, just like everyone else does if they have down time. Because this is what down time is for.

Hikes, I've hiked while in Division, MEF, and Wing....so don't tell me the wing doesn't hike. Yeah we may not hike 25miles for a MCREST though we do hike with the required full combat load, why because we are a Support Squadron. My units perfom CEB tasks, Flight Line tasks, Fire Fighting, EOD tasks, etc. Again, if you don't know about the Wing/Group don't talk smack. Hear say isn't always the greatest and maybe edcuate yourself about them before shooting from the hip. I do agree with the fact that at times Division peronnel may have it rougher, I don't think they are any more special either. We have all sacrificed something.

I've seen HMs of all kinds, good ones, bad ones, fat bodies, etc. all over the FMF to include Division. Yes, Division may not like to tolerate these type of personnel as much, though they will put them in H&S Co to correct them so they will be a valuable assest to the Marine Corps or get them transferred out. It is the same for Group/Wing.

Please remember that I've been green for 10 years now. I have a love for the Marine Corps and respect of all that serve with them or have served with them. Plus, I have fun busting on my buddies for not being in the type of unit I'm in (Group/Wing/Division/MEF etc). It's the "Esprit De' Corps" that keeps me here.

Remember we are all Brothers/Sisters in the FMF Community.

"The Marines have found their FEW GOOD MEN, NAVY CORPSMEN!"

Climbing down off my soap box now....

In the words of John Boy and Billy: "Luv Ya, Mean It"...

schirling_rules

05-09-2007, 12:10

CrazyCajun,

Thanks for the insights. They are all good points. True, in my anger I forgot that I have a few buddies in 2nd MAW whose units were turned into glorified convoy escorts, and they are certainly taking casulaties from IEDs and such. As stated before, I didn't mean disrespect to those communities. I am just disturbed by the future prospect of taking a C school for the reason of a sweet SRB, not job sastisfaction. I didn't realize that 8404's were once thought of like that. I think due to the the post FMSS training that my guys and I go through now, to include such great schools like OEMS, makes their level of professional knowledge far exceed that of a standard 0000.

DOC_Newt

05-10-2007, 08:19

I agree with Crazy Cajun, all 8404s have a taxing job and we need to stick together.
The post that Da-Chief put up about the manning, ok I see the numbers but you look at that and it does not show the number of IAs that had just completed a green side tour that checked into their shore command and where told not to unpack the sea bag, and the number of IAs that are currently deployed is pretty high considering that the 8404 community is 126.8% manned. It looks to me that big Navy did not adjust the numbers to reflect the war time stock pile of 8404s, I mean FMSS is pushing more HMs through now then they have since I would guess the 70's, when I went through Corps School (early Feb 2001)they sent me straight to my first command not to FMSS, that was because they didn't need 8404s the demand was low, but after Sep 11, 2001 the demand jumped, and about 80% of the orders on JASS was FMF 8404. It's a supply and demand market when it comes to 8404 and the demand is greater than the supply at this point in time and a SRB for 8404 would help to balance the numbers out.
If big Navy would offer a SRB during the time of war to 8404s, I think that this would satisfy most of the 8404 community. I mean if the Marines give the 03 community SRBs during war time then why won't the Navy do the same for 8404s.

crazycajun

05-11-2007, 06:19

Again, they currently have an FMF 84XX Committee underway to look at FMF HMs. This Committee is looking at all aspects of the FMF HM.

The unfortunate thing with SRBs is that it is supply and demand. Our surplus of FMF HMs is killing us. One way the Committee has attempted to change or lower the number for the 8404 community is by having all HMC's and above drop their 8404 if they are not currently serving in an 8404 billet.

Also, it's hard for them to give a bonus for an NEC that they force personnel to go in to. They were forcing all personnel through FMSS (8404) prior to going to school for their primary NEC. These things are slowly changing. Think of it this way, since I have personnel with 2 NECs (8432/8404) which SRB should they get or should they get a SRB for both of them. Please keep in mind since I've been in 20+ years I don't rate a SRB! This is why the Committee is working these questions and attempting to answer them.

This could change in the future, so keep asking the tough questions to your Chain of Command.

psencik1950

05-12-2007, 07:26

It is certainly more complicated now, than at the end of the Vietnam War. They never offered a VRB (variable reenlistment bonus) until about 1971, then it was far less than most other rates. NEC didn't enter into it. Of course, they had been running 3 or 4 companies a week thru Diego and Great Lakes.

Ariscor

05-13-2007, 07:34

As a quad zero, thanks to ALL you 8404's, just remember we are a CORPS..
We all have tough jobs, granted, some are a lot tougher and more dangerous then others. Being here at Landstuhl I have seen what comes through the ICU and the wards, have seen more then my share of Docs come through with horrific injuries, believe me, we make an effort to really show our support when one of our own comes through.
The wounded Marines that come through I think feel a lot better when they see so many Navy personnel here at an Army Hospital, and have been told as much.
Anyway, theres my 2 cents for all that its worth

Da-Chief

05-13-2007, 20:48

Ariscor,
Thanks for the update in Germany, I know the second phase is getting setup to relieve you guys..

Good Job.. Your right I never thought about how it felt for Nav/Marine Corps personnel coming into that hospital, It would make them feel better.

Da-Chief

0311_DoC

05-14-2007, 09:11

Reservists May Soon Get Cash to Switch Jobs
(NAVY TIMES, 11 MAY 07) … Chris Amos
The Navy Reserve expects to begin paying bonuses within the next few months to encourage reservists to transition to deployment-intensive ratings as part of an effort to shift the reserve component to a more expeditionary footing — and that should mean significantly longer mobilizations for most reservists in coming years.

The Navy Reserve announced in March that it will pay bonuses of up to $20,000 to people who sign up for six-year hitches and $10,000 for those who sign up for three-year commitments in 15 deployment-intensive ratings.

Bonuses for civilians who go directly into the Navy Reserve are being paid for several Seabee ratings, hospital corpsmen, intelligence specialists and masters at arms.

Bonuses for sailors leaving active duty are being paid for those ratings, plus for divers, linguists and SEALs. But bonuses are not available to current reservists who want to switch to these ratings. That should change soon.

Lt. Adam Bashaw, spokesman for the Navy Reserve Forces Command, confirmed that a decision is pending on paying bonuses to entice reservists to switch to deployment-intensive ratings, but he declined to speculate on the amount of bonuses that will be paid, the ratings they will be paid for, or the date the bonuses will be approved.

The bonuses are needed, advocates said, because lengthy mobilizations have put pressure on reservists’ professional and family lives.

Of the 10 most mobilized ratings in the Navy Reserve in 2006, all but three — storekeeper, information systems technician and boatswain’s mate — net bonuses for people off the street and those coming from active duty.

Vice Adm. John G. Cotton, chief of the Navy Reserve, said that within six years, he expects there to be 50,000 sailors assigned to Navy Expeditionary Combat Command, the group to which a large percentage of deployment-intensive ratings belongs. About half of those — 25,000 — will be reservists, Cotton said.

0311_DoC

05-14-2007, 09:17

MAWDoc

05-14-2007, 09:41

CrazyCajun,

I am just disturbed by the future prospect of taking a C school for the reason of a sweet SRB, not job sastisfaction.

Schirling_rules,

Interesting choice of words...

Your career is your choice, and my personal choice (certainly not a career counselor's perspective or advice, and I beg you not to take this that way) is that satisfaction in what you do everyday is profoundly more important to your mental and physical heath than something as petty and temporary as money. I promise you, for the rest of your days, and no matter how much you file in the gross wage column of your Form 1040, 5, 6, or 7 figure salaries...it will NEVER BE ENOUGH! The more you make, the more you spend - it is the American way of life. So, if you are sacrificing your daily sanity and pride and love for your duties and billet, think long and hard as to why you are doing it. If it is a temporary boost in income, such as as 2.0 bonus, I urge you to reconsider. The only reasons you should consider an NEC is either an interest in the field, career progression enhancement, or as experience in a field you plan to work in after your Navy career.

As for Wing vs Div vs Group - one team one fight. I promise you that there are easier days in each than in any other, and there are harder days. While I take every Grunt, Marine or Corpsman, as the backbone of the Corps, kicking ass and taking names, I have seen both Marines and Docs paying the price in all of the MEF MSCs - not just in MARDIV. MLG and Wing Corpsmen are usually the guys in the Phroggs swooping into an LZ to CASEVAC wounded Marines and Sailors that you are trusting to continue the care delivery to either you or one of your brothers, and I'm sure it doesn't matter where the hell they came from or how many miles they hump with how much weight, so long as they can pour their heart, soul and effort into preserving life and limb, and quality of life after - and delivering them to a FRSS/STP or Surgical Company from MLG/FSSG to zip them back up.

I enjoy the Esprit de Corps - we're the best, you guys suck, ie...it is the fundamental reason we strive to excel and take pride in our unit integrity - whether counting bandaids during an LTI at MedLog, sitting on a flightline at 2400 while flight ops are on, or kicking in doors in Ramadi...you are all my brothers and sisters and I'm proud to be associated with all of you Wingers, Grunts and MLG Pogues.

Semper Fi, Devil Docs.

R/
Chief

DOC_Newt

05-22-2007, 08:03

Schirling_rules,

Interesting choice of words...

Your career is your choice, and my personal choice (certainly not a career counselor's perspective or advice, and I beg you not to take this that way) is that satisfaction in what you do everyday is profoundly more important to your mental and physical heath than something as petty and temporary as money. I promise you, for the rest of your days, and no matter how much you file in the gross wage column of your Form 1040, 5, 6, or 7 figure salaries...it will NEVER BE ENOUGH! The more you make, the more you spend - it is the American way of life. So, if you are sacrificing your daily sanity and pride and love for your duties and billet, think long and hard as to why you are doing it. If it is a temporary boost in income, such as as 2.0 bonus, I urge you to reconsider. The only reasons you should consider an NEC is either an interest in the field, career progression enhancement, or as experience in a field you plan to work in after your Navy career.

As for Wing vs Div vs Group - one team one fight. I promise you that there are easier days in each than in any other, and there are harder days. While I take every Grunt, Marine or Corpsman, as the backbone of the Corps, kicking ass and taking names, I have seen both Marines and Docs paying the price in all of the MEF MSCs - not just in MARDIV. MLG and Wing Corpsmen are usually the guys in the Phroggs swooping into an LZ to CASEVAC wounded Marines and Sailors that you are trusting to continue the care delivery to either you or one of your brothers, and I'm sure it doesn't matter where the hell they came from or how many miles they hump with how much weight, so long as they can pour their heart, soul and effort into preserving life and limb, and quality of life after - and delivering them to a FRSS/STP or Surgical Company from MLG/FSSG to zip them back up.

I enjoy the Esprit de Corps - we're the best, you guys suck, ie...it is the fundamental reason we strive to excel and take pride in our unit integrity - whether counting bandaids during an LTI at MedLog, sitting on a flightline at 2400 while flight ops are on, or kicking in doors in Ramadi...you are all my brothers and sisters and I'm proud to be associated with all of you Wingers, Grunts and MLG Pogues.

Semper Fi, Devil Docs.

R/
Chief

That is one of the better responses, slightly off the subject but very valid. This topic is not about whom in the 8404 community rates an SRB but that the 8404 community rates an SRB bottom line.

Just to go back and touch on a prior post the 8404 community is currently manned at 126.8% ok but if we are so over manned then why are over 600 8404 HMs deployed as IAs, and these numbers actually mask the true number of 8404/0000 HMs, I’m sure that a large amount of the 6,182 8404s hold a second NEC which is inflating the numbers. Also since over 600 8404 HMs are deployed as IAs then the quota for 8404s needs to go up by at least 37% to completely satisfy the wartime need.

MAWDoc

05-22-2007, 14:13

Just to go back and touch on a prior post the 8404 community is currently manned at 126.8% ..... I’m sure that a large amount of the 6,182 8404s hold a second NEC which is inflating the numbers. Also since over 600 8404 HMs are deployed as IAs then the quota for 8404s needs to go up by at least 37% to completely satisfy the wartime need.

Not true...

Last manning report listed:

1) There were 7,590 HM 8404s in the Navy on May 11th. These are corpsmen with NO OTHER NECs - JUST 8404!

2) There are only 6,182 available billets for HM8404s. (TOTAL in the NAVY/FMF & IA).
2a) Eliminate the 610 I/A billets and there are 5,572 actual billets...
2b) Again, there are 610 I/A Billets in the Navy right now.
2c) 526 HM8404 corpsmen are filling these 610 billets.

3) Subtract 526 IAs from 7,590 available HM8404s on active duty, and you have how many?
ANSWER: 7,064 corpsmen who have ONLY HM8404 as an NEC
***(DOES NOT INCLUDE 8404 as a SNEC... only 8404 as a PNEC)***

So... after removing IAs from the picture entirely (billets and number filling them, 8404 manning is 126.8%, because there are 1,492 more HM8404s than there are billets for them to fill.
(7,064 corpsmen - 5,572 billets = 1,492 extra corpsmen = 126.8% or 26.8% more than needed = no SRB). Sorry...

When you DO include the IA billets and corpsmen filling them, the data works like this:

(7,590 corpsmen - 6,182 total billets = 1,408 extra corpsmen = 122.8% of manning goal, or 22.8% more than are needed. Again, no SRB...

Primary NECs count in their own column, and are not counted at all in the 8404 line up. 8404 is always secondary.

There are 25,571 billets for corpsmen of all NECs in the Navy, FMF and IA right now.
There are 25,016 corpsmen on active duty right now (all NECs).

Hope this clears the issue up.

R/
Chief

MAWDoc

05-22-2007, 14:23

This topic is not about whom in the 8404 community rates an SRB but that the 8404 community rates an SRB bottom line.....the quota for 8404s needs to go up by at least 37% to completely satisfy the wartime need.

The problem that you see in not having enough corpsmen is not in that we don't have enough...it's that we like to rotate. The answer you're looking for (pipe dream, and I'd like it too)...is to DOUBLE the number of 8404s, so you're not always in Iraq, and have a relief for your billet...

THIS and not manning levels, is the reason we feel multiple deployment and cross-decking pain. 20% of the force gets a break. In order to work properly, the rotation should be on the same percentages:

The sea/shore rotation schedule for 8404s should then work in a 20/100 cycle: 1 yr shore/5yrs sea - not 4 yrs shore (E5 and up) and 3 yrs sea... This would fix the issue, too.

I'm all about longer sea tours...

Justhafax

05-22-2007, 14:57

What some might say is that there should be an srb for the difficulty of the duty vice solving an undermanned nec issue. But from what I understand, srb's have nothing to do with the actual work required of an individual holding any particular nec. It's all about the numbers crunching and maintaining those numbers.

Can't help but wonder though how many seasoned -- really valuble -- docs are leaving the Navy due to issues such as promotions, lack of srb, shorter than aveage dwell to deploy ratio?

Yes, the Navy can fill the vacancies through recruiting and conversions, etc., but what abou the experience that leaves when the seasoned docs punches out?

Now, there could be some real smart guys at Perscomm who figure a number of billets that can't be supported through recruiting, training pipeline, etc., ... causing 8404s to be chronically undermanned and therefore always in receipt of an srb ...

just a thought

HMC-FMF-PJ

05-22-2007, 23:19

Primary NECs count in their own column, and are not counted at all in the 8404 line up. 8404 is always secondary.

I do not know the administrative details (nightmare) of NEC tracking, but I have at least one exception for your "8404 is always secondary" comment.

My 9502 is not listed as my primary NEC and I am about positive I have seen misc NSIPS reports that counted a HMCS in a FMSS billet as 8404.

MAWDoc

05-23-2007, 06:36

My 9502 is not listed as my primary NEC and I am about positive I have seen misc NSIPS reports that counted a HMCS in a FMSS billet as 8404.

HMC-FMF-PJ,
You're right...

I'm not 100% on the FMSS Instructors, but believe that they are 8404 billets. 9502 is an administrative requirement for the billet, like 9588 CCCs. I meant more to the effect of "Secondary to: 8401, 8402, 8403, 8406, 8407, 8409, 8425, etc..." - the technical PNECs that are stand-alones.

My response was to the Sailor who stated that anyone carrying the 8404 NEC counted toward the total available (7590). We all know there are A LOT more than 7,590 corpsmen who carry 8404 as an additional NEC.

In MAG-14 alone, I rate:
(10) 8404/0000
(13) 8406/8404
(1) 8409/8404
(All of these are organic Account 100 billets and are BA on the EDVR - not the USMC T/O. No MAPs are not included in this).

Those 13 AVTs and 1 APT don't count as 8404s for total Navy 8404 manning purposes, but as 8406s and 8409s.

Similarly, an MWSS rates
(2) 8432/8404,
(1) 8425/8404,
(1) 8406/8404,
(1) 8451/8404,
(1) 8482/8404,
(1) 8506/8404,
(8) 8404/0000.

The only billets and bodies that count toward manning for 8404 are the 8 at the bottom of this list, the other 7 corpsmen, though 8404s as well (SNEC), DON'T COUNT toward 8404 manning.

It took me 2 years as a manpower chief to figure the Chinese arrithmetic, BA/NMP, T/O, AMD and EDVR out.

S/F-
Chief

DOC_Newt

06-26-2007, 09:48

Everyone, I have word that the Force Master Chief has been pushing for some changes in the 8404 community, and a couple have gone through, first a new NEC for E-6 and above is in the works which will focus on leadership and training the junior 8404 HM, also Combat Deployment "Bonuses" have been approved which should bring a little more reward and gratitude to the folks doing the job.

So stand by for these changes coming down the pipe.

But let's not back off these changes are occurring because the 8404 community has been making noise and asking the tough questions.

DOC_Newt

Da-Chief

06-26-2007, 12:23

There ya go Newt!! Awesome..

All,
Newt is right Sometimes it takes cage rattling to get things going. Be respectful but ask the questions.. Sometimes you wonder why they weren't asked before.. (Sheep!)..

Most common response.. Becuase it has always been that way..

Baaaaa....

;-)

Good onya Newt Keep us appraised!

HMC

manningrr

06-26-2007, 19:29

There were rumors floating around Camp Lejeune last year. The new NEC is rumored to be 8469. It has to do with not sending any non 8404 HM1's or above to Field Med to receive the NEC. That was the word that was being passed around last year.

The combat deployment bonus will probably be the extra 75 dollars that 8404's attached to certain UIC's will get while they are in combat operations. There is a total of eight UIC's that will receive the money.

Keep asking the questions because it is about time the Navy starting realizing what we do. It took the IA Sailors going over to Iraq and Afghanistan for the Navy to realize that there are Sailors out there every day dodging bullets, rockets, mortars and praying that this ride back to the COP will be quiet and dull. There has been a ton of changes since I left for shore duty back in 03 and came back to Div in 06. It is getting better.

With all of that being said, why are we argueing about which platform is better. An 8404 is an 8404. No questions asked. I am in Division now and I have been in Group. It does not matter if you are kicking in doors, flying Casevacs or riding in supply convoys. We are all getting shot at and the enemy wants to kill us. Houses are booby trapped, IED's are everywhere and they like to shoot RPG's at the helos. I like to talk crap about the other platforms, but it is all in good fun because I have seen those guys come through my BAS in Iraq just like the grunts. Who cares if the one HM has been chilling at Al Asad or Camp Fallujah for seven months while you have been sucking it up at a TCP out in Ramadi or Rawah. Everyone has a job to do and there are plenty of service members that are very thankful for the 8404 on the helo and the one chilling at Al Asad Surgical. Yeah I hated on them because they had KBnR chow and the exchange, but they had a job to do and I had a job to do.

Remember One Team One Fight. We have to stick together because we are our own little community in the Navy. We finally have someone at Big Navy (MCPON) who understands what we do.

Sorry for the rant. Ooh Rah
HM1

old navy

06-27-2007, 03:42

Great post HM1. I agree.

HMC-FMF-PJ

06-27-2007, 18:14

The combat deployment bonus will probably be the extra 75 dollars that 8404's attached to certain UIC's will get while they are in combat operations.

OPNAVINST 1160.6B, signed 29Dec06, is the new Special Duty Assignment Pay (SDAP) instruction.

http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/1FA4E7B0-6C7E-4033-9745-3FDA7A3F4653/0/NAV07140.txt
NAVADMIN 140/07, released May 31, revised the SDAP levels. Increases are effective June 1, and terminations/reductions are effective Oct 1.

51) HM-8404 AUTHORIZED SD-1-75 WHEN DEPLOYED TO COMBAT ZONE IN THE FOLLOWING USMC DIVISION UIC'S: 48139, 67448, 08321, 31948, 3752A, 67360, 67906,AND 45099.

SD-1-75 means 8404 Corpsmen, E3 & above, get an extra $75 a month while in a combat zone.

Other Corpsmen get various levels of SDAP for manning those special or hard to fill billets (ie. NEC 8427, $225 for Type 2, 3, or 4 duty)