FMF device

[Ordicus]

When did the FMF device begin to be issued to HM's?
Ordicus

[crazycajun]

Ordicus,

It was started and the instruction was signed in the middle of2000.

Just in case you didn't already know: No one was grandfathered in, not even personnel that were previously awarded the FMF Ribbon. Everyone has to complete the entire process for the device. Personnel have to complete the Personnel Qualifiction Standards, pass a written test and oral board to qualifyas aFleet Marine Force Warfare Specilist. There are three different sections GCE, ACE, FSSG (Now MLG), it just depends on who you are stationed with.

Hope this helps.

Semper Fi,

crazycajun

[Da-Chief]

All,

What Crazycajun mentioned is true..

I am a "TAR/FTS" Sailor, who was assigned to I&I duty with 1/14. While I could train my Reserve HM's and actually sit the board etc.. (I am Air Warfare qualified) I could not get the pin..

They authorized TAR/FTS sailors 1 month after I PCS'ed..

Rules are rules.. I have to say the FMF Warfare program is the best of all of em..

Chief out..

:P

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

Which "FMF Device"? The FMF pin or Mini-EGA on ribbons & medals?

FMF Pin:

Enlisted Fleet Marine Force Warfare Specialists (FMF).
OPNAVINST 1414.4A, NAVY ENLISTED FLEET MARINE FORCE WARFARE SPECIALIST PROGRAM, 20 Feb 2004
NAVEDTRA 43908-A, PQS FMF Enlisted

Fleet Marine Force Qualified Officer (FMFQO)
OPNAVINST 1414.6, FLEET MARINE FORCE QUALIFIED OFFICER PROGRAM, 1 Jul 2005
NAVEDTRA 43908-1A, PQS FMF Officer

===============================
Mini-EGA on ribbons & medals:

The Mini-EGA device is actually called the "Fleet Marine Force Combat Operation Insignia "

Per SECNAVINST 1650.1G, NAVY AND MARINE CORPS AWARDS MANUAL, 7 January 2002
"Fleet Marine Force (FMF) Combat Operation Insignia is a miniature bronze Marine Corps emblem and is authorized for Navy personnel who are assigned or attached to FMF units in active combat with an armed enemy beginning with World War II. The Insignia will be worn centered on the suspension ribbon and ribbon bar of World War II area campaign medals, Korean Service Medal, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, Vietnam Service Medal, Southwest Asia Service Medal, Kosovo Campaign Medal and, upon approval of CMC, on future medals so designated. This authorization applies to Navy personnel attached to and operating with FMF units, and to Navy personnel attached to Navy units operating with FMF units and under FMF operational control. This is a restrictive device; attachment to operations with a Marine unit is not sufficient to establish eligibility for this insignia. The Marine unit must have been engaged in actual combat action during the period of the individual's service with the unit. Questions regarding eligibility for the FMF Insignia are addressed via the Marine Corps chain of command; CMC (MMMA) is the final authority for eligibility."

The FMF Combat Operation Insignia is also authorized for the GWOTEM, ACM, and ICM; however, the Marine unit must have been engaged in actual combat. Therefore, I do not think anyone rates one for a GWOTSM. It is remotely possible, but I've challenged every one I've seen and so far not one actually rated it on their GWOTSM. After all, the device is not merely an "I was with the Marines" ornament.

I have also seen people try to put it on every ribbon they rate. The FMF Combat Operation Insignia is only for campaign medals and cannot be worn on personal awards or service medals. (Not worn on the NAM, CAR, PUC, FMF, National Service or SSDR). Again, this is a combat award and needs to be worn properly.

Hell, all awards need to be worn properly and all Petty Officers & Chiefs need to ensure it happens!

[BILLY_SEMPER FI]

Ii have a quick question....I have completed 8404 and I really want to go to Jump school...am i able to go there as a reservist?

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

In order to try to keep the threads on topic, I'll answer a question from another discussion (http://www.corpsman.com/wowbb/view_topic.php?id=141&forum_id=2) here:
I was under the impression that the EGA on the GWOTEM was only authorized if yousaw fire while recieving that award.


Not really.

The eligibility criteria for the FMF Combat Operation Insignia (aka Mini-EGA) is lower than the awarding criteria for the Combat Action Ribbon (CAR). You need to be part of the Marine's combat campaign but you don't need to be in a foxhole on the frontline watching the tracers zip by.

If your Marine unit earns a campaign medal for a combat tour recognized by the CMC, then typically you should rate the FMF Combat Operation Insignia for your campaign medal. If your unit never see's combat action, then you won't rate the device.If you didn't deploy and aren't entitled tothe campaign medal, you certainly don't rate the device.

I'm not sure how far back the line for eligibility is draw when a person deploys and works near the rear in relative safety. I don't think OIF service in Kuwait qualifies for the device, but I could be very wrong in that assessment.

Without all the administrative interpretations it is hard to determine specific details but I guess it could be as simple and all encompassing as: II MEF Fwd went to Iraqi and saw combat, so all Navy personel attached and deployed with II MEF Fwd might rate the insignia. I doubt it is that straightforward, but the the device does not require each individual to be under fire before they can wear it. I believe this is why some logistic and hospital units (who weren't shot at) rate the FMF Combat Operation Insignia.


REFERENCE:
MARADMIN 218/04: "THE FMF COMBAT OPERATIONAL INSIGNIA IS A RESTRICTIVE DEVICE; BEING ATTACHED TO OPERATIONS WITH A MARINE UNIT IS NOT SUFFICIENT TO ESTABLISH ELIGIBILTIY FOR THIS INSIGNIA. THE MARINE UNIT MUST HAVE BEEN ENGAGED IN ACTUAL COMBAT ACTION DURING THE PERIOD OF THE INDIVIDUAL'S SERVICE WITH THE UNIT."

SECNAVINST 1650.1G is provided above.

[Xraydoc]

Okay clear as mud as usual. I dont rate either insignia but is it possible to rate both. Same tour different opperations?

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

Yes.

They are different devices with different criteria. Just as you may earn a CAR and FMF Combat Operation Insignia from one operation during one tour,you may also earn a Battle Star for the GWOTEM during that same op.

[Marine55rick]

I need clarification and I have yet to find it on the net so perhaps you can assist. I work with Okahoma Congressman John Sullivan on his Veteran's Advisory Council and assist vet's and/or their families in obtaining all decorations the veteran earned while in the military. Believe me when I say this is not always easy as the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) is not known for it's research or diligence in ensuring all awards are granted. Over 90% of the cases I work result in 2nd 3rd and even a 4th request to get the vet what they deserve. But that's not why I am writing.

One of the vet's I am working on was a 1st Recon Corpsman in Viet Nam in 1969/1970. My first response from NPRC was actually pretty good for them (except for not awarding him his Good Conduct Medal which he is eligible for). However, they did not award him the Fleet Marine Force Combat device (small EG & A) to his Viet Nam Service Medal as I thought he should have. I saw many a corpsman in my days in the Marines that had that device on their VSM ribbon.

Now, what NPRC did do, which I do not think is correct, was state this old Doc was eligible for the "Insignia - Fleet Marine Force". Now what the heck are they talking about? Are they referencing the small EGA but didn't have sense enough to say it was for the VSM? Or are they saying he rates the FMF Combat Badge?

Rick Lawrence, MSgt., USMC/USAFR (Ret)

[Da-Chief]

Negative, He is not eligible for the new device, back then they had the ribbon.

The only way you are eligible for the device is if you go through the program (PQS) go before a board and pass a written test. Peope were not grandfathered, so say someone like CrazyCajun who was already FMF (Old WAY) had to do it all again to qual for this one.

Hope this helps.

V/R
HMC

[Da-Chief]

Wait a minute, Marine and Air Force???? WTF???

Doesn't this negate something?? This is like Oil and Water with fire!

:shock:



HMC

[crazycajun]

Marine55rick,

It sounds like he rates the FMF Device (Small Eagle, Globe and Anchor). I think Device/Insignia may be synonamous. The 1650.1G talks about this in the following paragraph:

3. Miscellaneous Devices
a. Fleet Marine Force (FMF) Combat Operation Insignia is a miniature bronze Marine Corps emblem and is authorized for Navy personnel who are assigned or attached to FMF units in active combat with an armed enemy beginning
with World War II. The Insignia will be worn centered on the suspension ribbon and ribbon bar of World War II area SECNAVINST 1650.1G 1-13 campaign medals, Korean Service Medal, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, Vietnam Service Medal, Southwest Asia Service Medal, Kosovo Campaign Medal and, upon approval of CMC, on future medals so designated. This authorization applies to Navy personnel attached to and operating withFMF units, and to Navy personnel attached to Navy units operating with FMF units and under FMF operational control. This is a restrictive device; attachment to operations with a Marine unit is not sufficient to establish eligibility for this insignia. The Marine unit must have been engaged in actual combat action during the period of the individual's service with the unit. Questions regarding eligibility for the FMF Insignia are addressed via the Marine Corps chain of command; CMC (MMMA) is the final authority for eligibility.

He does not meet the FMF Ribbon Guidlines as set forth :

Navy Fleet Marine Force Ribbon
a. Authorization. SECNAVINST 1650.36 of 1 September 1984.

Hope this helps!

[Da-Chief]

So Crazy,

Let me get this straight so I understand.. In Vietnam, they did not get the FMF ribbon, but the device if they were in actual Combat, and that device was placed on a ribbon to be worn with ribbons.??

So when did the FMF Ribbon (The old way) come about ???

Just wondering.. Glad you jumped in here..

Thanks bro..

Da-Chief

[crazycajun]

The Fleet Marine Force Ribbon: Authorization. SECNAVINST 1650.36 of 1 September 1984.
As far as I can tell, they didn't have anything but the Fleet Marine Force Combat Insignia (Small Eagle, Globe and Anchor) which adorned Campaign Medals/Ribbons. The various campaigns are listed in the paragraph in my previous message and in the one HMC-FMF-PJ wrote on 15 Aug 06.

Hope this helps!

[Marine55rick]

Well that's what I thought but I just wasn't clear. I knew he didn't rate the ribbon as that came about after he was out, and tha badge just didn't seem right at all. The EGA for his VSM is correct then and that's what I'll get for his VSM ribbon (sinceNPRC/Navy won't issue that one for some stupid reason).

Semper Fi,

Rick

[Marine55rick]

Yeah....it is a little weird. My knees gave out on me after 12 years in the Marines so I went to the Air Farce (spelling correct)reserves and did 13 years there as a Security Policeman. It wasn't near as taxing on my bones as being a Marine was though I did finally retire as my body had had enough. Funny thing ... my supervisors gave me all kinds of grief about my Marine attitude and bearing except one, the CO. He told the others to kiss off and try to be a little more military minded like I was. There are a few in the Air Farce who "get it".



To the Air Farce's credit, they do take dang good care of their people and families!

[Da-Chief]

Rick,

So your saying you need the badge?? I am close to a exchange here if you can give me until Monday, I can go look for you? Save you some $$$..

Have you contacted CMC yet as well, as the Marines generally take better care of their doc's then the Navy does. They hate it when people who were supposed to get a award are shorted..

Is this for a funeral or your just helping someone out?

Later

HMC

[Marine55rick]

Thanks for the offer but I've got it taken care of. Dang nice of you to offer though! I fund a lot of the mountings I do for the vets/families out of my own pocket which can be somehat financially burdensome!

While it's true that the Marines sometimes take better care of their Doc's than the Navy does, in this situation the Corps really has no control over it. When a request for decorations has been submitted to NPRC in St. Louis for a Navy or Marine vet, it is funneled to that services' representative - sometimes a civilian, sometimes an actual military member. They determine the awards the vet is entitled to, usually by simply looking at the DD-214, and issue them to me. For the Doc whose case I'm working on, I had to prove to them he rated more decorations than what was shown on that DD-214 such as an MUC, Good Conduct Medal, RVN Cross of Gallantry unit citation, RVN Civic Actions Honor Medal unit citation, etc. I was surprised they noted in their response to me that Doc rated the FMF device since I didn't initially ask for it (which was my oversite). Only they make the award determinations and if I can't convince them of it or have the documentation to prove eligibility, I have to submit paperwork for a board of correction to review the case and make a decision based on the evidence I present. I had one WWII Army Air Corps case (which is handled by the Air Force) concerning the number of campaign credits that vet rated that took me a year and a half to resolve - which I won, I might add. They initially credited him with only three. When I was done he had eight!

[crazycajun]

Rick,

Good work and keep it up brother!

[DevilDoc]

In response to what Rick said about the Marines taking better care of the Doc's...this is true in only some cases....Award wise...forget it. Being on the green side....you're lucky to get a letter of Commendation. NAM's, Etc....hardly heard of, at least with any units I've been with. This is mostly because our own Officers are too busy giving themselves ribbons and awards to notice us....and then the MC officers don't think about doing it, probably because they think our own officers are taking care of it. It's a joke.

[Da-Chief]

Funny, I had the opposite thing happen, walked out with a NAVY COM after my BN Tour. Were you in a Group Position?? Mostly Supply types?? I have found the warrior breed, while not the best writers in the world take care of thier people.

V/R
Da-Chief

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

DevilDoc wrote: only some cases....Award wise...forget it.
I would have to say that while (in my experience) the standard award criteria is a bit higher/stricter on the Green-side, the Marines do indeed take care of their Doc's when:
(1) Doc's performance rates recognition.
(2) Marine leaders are aware of the performance.

Part of the LPO's duty is to take care of his men. This includes making sure that unit leadership is aware of his top performers. The LPO can submit draft award recommendations and submit Corpsman write-ups for things like Sailor of the Year 'AND' Marine of the Year or NCO of the Year. (Sometimes the enlisted need to 'direct' or 'focus' the efforts of their officers to ensure things get taken care of -- especially the men.)

However, I also recognize that even with intense prodding a few Marines (mostly REMF-types) do not want to issue any form of recognition to anyone not in the Marines.

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

Marine55rick wrote: They determine the awards the vet is entitled to, usually by simply looking at the DD-214, and issue them to me. For the Doc whose case I'm working on, I had to prove to them he rated more decorations than what was shown on that DD-214

Something else to look into. You're probably are already on top of this, but since it wasn't mentioned I thought I'd add two cents.
(1) I don't know if your Doc did one year of two (69/70) so he may rate a campaign star for his Vietnam Service Medal.
(2) The Republic of South Vietnam should have also awarded him the Vietnam Campaign Medal. Since this is a foreign medal, I'm not 100% sure it shows up on the DD-214.

Here's alittle background reading on the VSM and also shows the proper device placement (EGA & stars)
http://www.history.navy.mil/medals/vsn.htm

[crazycajun]

I'd have to say I've seen both side of the fence with the Marine Corps issuing awards. Though I've received awards from the Marine Corps.

I agree with HMC-FMF-PJ, that it sometimes takes an iron fist to get your troops awarded. Mostly you do have to sell the Sailors to the Marines in Charge to get them what the deserve. If not, they fall off the radar screen and sometimes get left out.

I've also been with units that do not like to issue a person more than one award during a single tour, so sometimes you have to pick and chose. Do you want an award for a deployment or would you prefer an award for End of Tour. Sometimes, they can only award X number of awards and they may limit how many each section gets. LPO's need to submit the Sailors that deserve being awarded.

All I can say is that if you have a Sailor that deserves an award, fight for them, ensure the write up is oustanding and sell them.

[DevilDoc]

Well, here's what happened to me. I was being put in for a NAM by one unit, but got transferred before they finished up the paperwork. So they said that my new unit should make sure I recieved it. They didn't. The unit I am in now, the LPO sucks! That's being nice! Not one person in this unit has gotten any awards...except him! He got Sailor of the Quarter. I have been with this unit two years now. I haven't seen anyone except officers recieve awards. When asked about it, one of the officers said he didn't know that we weren't getting anything for our efforts. This included a mission that two of my shipmates went on with officers. The officers all recieved some sort of recognition, while the enlisted didn't even get a mention...and they of course did all the work. Nice huh? We have people putting in transfers left and right because they are tired of being put to work like work horses and not even getting so much as a thank you. It really lies with the upper end of the enlisted and the officers. We just got a new LPO, so hopefully we'll see some changes!

I was in on an exercise out in Twenty Nine Palms this past year. There weren't any Navy Officers overseeing us. There were only Marine Corps officers. The Senior Doc in charge, asked the CAPT to give three of us a NAM, and he said he doesn't give out awards to Navy personnel. That was his exact response.

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

DevilDoc wrote: The Senior Doc in charge, asked the CAPT to give three of us a NAM, and he said he doesn't give out awards to Navy personnel.
"Oh, then you won't mind when I direct my Navy personnel not to provide any medical care or support to Marine Corps Captains?"

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

From time to time, adversarial relationships will develop that need to be addressed.

The roots could be USMC v USN, Officer v Enlisted, Medical v Non-medical, Green-side v Blue-side, AD v Res, etc ad nauseam. Hell, I’ve even seen Sgt/SSgt with 5+ years service & 4 ribbons, mistreat Jr Marines because upon returning from OIF the Jr Marines had 4-5 ribbons in less than 18 months service.

There are about a million things that can make the relationship better (and about a billion that can make it worse), so you’ll need to figure out what works for your situation. Sometimes simply doing your job will win them over, but other times it takes more creative ways to demonstrate the importance and value of Navy Corpsmen in the Marine Corps team.

Using the chain of command, reg’s & instructions, squared away Marines, mid-year counseling, workload prioritizing, IMR requirements, and medical services - - I’m sure you can think of something to clarify the need for a mutually beneficial relationship.

Maybe all you need to do to fix the Capt is to talk to the SgtMaj, who talks to the CO, who in turn issues a reminder to all the officers that they need to take care of the Corpsmen too.

[Marine55rick]

Thanks for the heads-up on the other awardsbut I'm well versed in those issues. As a retired REMF myself, I wrote up tons of award packages for my men andmaybe know more about decorations than the average Joe. The EGA device for the VSM was an exception as I never had to deal with that before. Sounds like I'm bragging but I'm really not.

My Doc got a Navy Comm w/ Combat "V" (downgraded by the REMF's from a Bronze Star w/ "V"), MUC, NUC, CAR, VSM w/ one camp star, Viet Nam Campaign Medal w/ 60 device, RVN Cross of Gallantry & RVN Civic Actions Honor Medal ribbon. He served with Bravo Company, 1st Recon Bn from July 1969 until he was medevaced out in January 1970 after blowing out his knee when some dumb LT (who was NOT Recon and probably only out on an OP to see if he could get a CAR in my opinion), heard some "VC in the wire"and tried to throw a grenade but dropped it next to Doc instead. His injury occurred trying to get away from that grenade (so no Purple Heart since there was no blood loss or sharpnel injury - just a deranged knee).

The pogues at NPRC did not award him a Navy Good Conduct Medal (not the Marine Corps responsibility here) because he discharged 13 days after he became eiligible for the award. When I submitted our request, I listed that award as being one he is eligible for as he met the criteria. BUT, because it was not listed on the DD-214, none of the pogues who reviewed his case looked to see if he was in fact eligible and if an oversight had occurred. They simply ignored the request even though his DD-214 clearly showed he had 4 years and 13 days of service and therefore rated a review for the decoration. Ergo, I've had to submit a second request and will wait another 2 or 3 months.

I complain to the Congressman's military advisor all the time about NPRC and I've even contacted the director at NPRCa couple of times myself about some of the hairbrained things his employees do - or don't do. Here's an example of one case I worked and the response I got from my initial request for records & medals. This man asked me to help him find out about what happened to his brother who was killed in WWII when his bomber was shot down after a run over the Polesti oil fields in Rumania and to help him get his brothers medals. He had a little paperwork his folks got after his brother died which really helped as most Army/Army Air Corps records from that time were destroyed in a fire in 1973. I showed NPRC that the man was KIA, the date he was KIA, his rank & serial number, copy of proof the man was KIA, his unit identifer etc. I also advised them he rated the Air Medal w/ 3 OLC's, the Purple Heart, the American Campaign Medal, the European Theater of Operations campaign Medal with 4 campaign stars and the WW II Victory Medal. In addition, I pointed out the family also rates a small purple lapel pin with a gold star in the center showing this man was killed in the war (kind of a Gold Star Mother thing). NPRC sent the Air Medal (I had to furnish the OLC's for the medal and service ribbon), the ETO medal w/ no campaign stars and the WWII Victory Medal. The note enclosed with them stated there was no proof that the man rated anything else to include the Purple Heart and the lapel pin! One of the documents I had sent was a copy of the letter of condolenscence (sp?) from President Roosevelt expressing his regret at the loss of their son in battle ...but yet we didn't have proof he rated the Purple Heart and the Gold Star pin!!! Needless to say, I did get them after I wrote to the director of NPRC and advised him of the insult his staff member gave to this heroes family etc., etc. Sure, he wrote back and apologized but the damage was done. I've done over 100 requests for records & medals to NPRC, and only about 10% are done correctly the first time.

Gov't red tape...lord how I "love" it....NOT!

[combatdoc]

HMC-FMF-PJ wrote: Marine55rick wrote: They determine the awards the vet is entitled to, usually by simply looking at the DD-214, and issue them to me. For the Doc whose case I'm working on, I had to prove to them he rated more decorations than what was shown on that DD-214

Something else to look into. You're probably are already on top of this, but since it wasn't mentioned I thought I'd add two cents.
(1) I don't know if your Doc did one year of two (69/70) so he may rate a campaign star for his Vietnam Service Medal.
(2) The Republic of South Vietnam should have also awarded him the Vietnam Campaign Medal. Since this is a foreign medal, I'm not 100% sure it shows up on the DD-214.

Here's alittle background reading on the VSM and also shows the proper device placement (EGA & stars)
http://www.history.navy.mil/medals/vsn.htmIt doesn't show any ribbons or medals on my DD 214, just a notation that I had to sign that the one I recieved is different from the one on file. Never have been able to get a copy of that one.

[Marine55rick]

Oh I just love it when an Admin Remington Ranger does that to a troop (I use troop no matter what service a person is in). It does nothing but create problems later on down the road for that serviceman. I had one once that listed only part of my awards because he was in a damn hurry to go to chow. I ended up having to have NPRC send me my records so I could prove to them what I rated. IF that pogue did his job, you should have something in your file that shows all of your decorations. However, the thing he told you about him sending one in with all of your decorations on it is suspect....as service members are SUPPOSE to sign any/all DD-214's if physically able. It doesn't always happen of course, but they're suppose to.

If you were in Nam it's easier to verify what all you rate. If you were in during peacetime, it's a little more difficult but it can still be done. All Navy & Marine personnel who were in country in Nam on the ground rate the RVN Campaign Medal, VSM with however many campaign stars, the RVN Cross of Gallantry unit award w/ palm and more than likely the RVN Civic Actions Honor Medal ribbon unit award w/ palm (also called a RVN Meritorious Unit Citation by the Marines & Navy). NUC's, MUC's & PUC's have to be verified by researching the unit you were assigned to. If you were in Vietnamese waters assigned as permanenet perssonnel aboard ship, you still rate the RVN Cross of Gallantry. One of the other cases I'm working on right now is for a brother jarhead who had ship duty in Vietnamese waters in 1972 and is my first case like this so I'm still learning here. I know he rates the Cross of Gallantry but I'm still trying to determine his eligibility for the Civic Actions award. General ORders issued by a command usually solve the probles of campaign stars & personal decorations. SECNAV 1650 (I think that's the right number) also will tell you if your unit rated any citations while you were assigned to that unit.

I just finished an Air FOrce retirees medals for him. He pulled the pin in '72 right after he returned from Nam. His DD-214 showed a pisspot full of decorations from his time in Nam, Peacetime 7 during the Korean War. After arguing with NPRC and the Air FOrce pogues at Randolf AFB (they handle Air Force issues that come thru NPRC) I got him all of his decorations replaced as well as a PUC from his time at Ton Sanot (I don't remember how to spell it) Air Base in Nam, the Korean War Service Medal, the Philippine Presidential Unit Citation, The RVN Cross of Gallantry w/ palm and another campaign star for his Korean Service Medal. The Air Force is a lot easier to work with on these issues than the Department of the Navy, believe me!

Your first step is to contact your Congressman's office and talk to his military representative. DON'T SEND IN A REQUEST ON YOUR OWN TO NPRC UNLESS YOU WANT TO DIE WAITING FOR THEM TO RESPOND!!! Turn around on Congressional requests is usually within 60 days. He/she can assist you in setting things in motion at NPRC. Hopefully, he will have some unofficial pogue like me he can contact if there is any questions about eligibility issues (or he might contact "Da Chief" here!). A DD-215 may need to be issued by NPRC to show all of your awards if there is no DD-214 available that lists them. And, be ready in case you have to submit paperwork to a board of correction in case NPRC says "blow it out your stovepipe we ain't giving ya that award cause there's no proof ya rate it". I've had to do it several times....and won all but one, but should have won that one and I'm still digging for the guy. Good luck!

'nuff said.....

Semper Fi Mac!

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

Hopefully all you pre-retiree's are following along and picking up some important lessons here.

Don't sign incorrect official documents with the promise/plan to fix it later simply because you are in a hurry. Slow down and do it right the first time or pitch a professional bitch until the document you are suppose to sign is correct.

() No one cares more about your career (or benefits) than you.
() If it is not on paper, it doesn't exist.
() If you do not have a copy, it doesn't exist.

I can't tell you how many people I've seen screw themselves because they were in a hurry or the clerk (& Corpsman) was lazy. This is especially true with warriors returning from OIF/OEF - even more so when idiots tell Marines that anyone indicating an injury won't be able to leave or may delay the unit's homecoming. Some individuals are so eager to go on leave, get demobilized, or separate from the military that they are willing to sign away their soul in an effort to get out the door faster. Only later do they find out that the 'minor pain' is a 'major injury', but now they are forced into an enormous admin fight in order to prove the injury was caused by military service related to duty in a combat zone before they can get all the benefits they should be entitled to. (How do you disprove signed statements that the Marine was healthy & free of injury without documentation?)

1. As a military professional, don't put yourself behind the 8-ball by rushing critical paperwork. (ie. DD 214, DD 2697, DD 2796, etc.)
2. As a Corpsman, don't screw your patients with crappy documentation.
3. As a Corpsman/Leader, don't allow your fellow warriors to screw themselves by hiding injuries and signing away benefits.
4. Enourage warriors with potential claims to file before seperation and to maintain complete copies of their records.

Just as a bad enlistment can screw up the start of your career and create a short-term nightmare, a bad separation can screw up your entire post-career and create a long-term or permanent nightmare.

[Marine55rick]

AMEN BROTHER! I wish I had thought to write that bit of wisdom myself! You are 1000 % right on target with that advise!

Semper Fi...Carry On!

[DevilDoc]

You are so correct and I can speak first hand. I recieved an injury at FMSS. They refused to do XRays...told me I had bursitis and gave me some tylenol. After I left, I found that they did not document it in my Medical Record. Turned out that I had to get an XRay and MRI on my own, with my civilian DR. I have both a sprained PCL and ACL, two years later, it's not healed yet. I exercise like a crazy person and go to physical therapy. Can't get anything from the military out of this, not even my bills paid because some pathetic IDC refused to do his job! Gotta love it! I will never screw over my Marines or other Corpsmen like that, that's for sure! I know first hand what it's like and every day I live with the physical reminder.

[tact.medic]

In case anyone is interested here is the website to check for your awards-

https://awards.navy.mil/awards/webbas01.nsf/(vwWebPage)/home.htm?OpenDocument

You should check this because if you don't have access to your Pers File you will not have proof of an award. Such is the case with me, it says I have no awards :(

I have to get this updated, just comes to show you that depts in the Navy don't communicate with each other. the burden for updating things like this unfortanatly is your own.

[psencik1950]

If you were in Nam it's easier to verify what all you rate. If you were in during peacetime, it's a little more difficult but it can still be done. All Navy & Marine personnel who were in country in Nam on the ground rate the RVN Campaign Medal, VSM with however many campaign stars, the RVN Cross of Gallantry unit award w/ palm and more than likely the RVN Civic Actions Honor Medal ribbon unit award w/ palm (also called a RVN Meritorious Unit Citation by the Marines & Navy). NUC's, MUC's & PUC's have to be verified by researching the unit you were assigned to. If you were in Vietnamese waters assigned as permanenet perssonnel aboard ship, you still rate the RVN Cross of Gallantry. One of the other cases I'm working on right now is for a brother jarhead who had ship duty in Vietnamese waters in 1972 and is my first case like this so I'm still learning here. I know he rates the Cross of Gallantry but I'm still trying to determine his eligibility for the Civic Actions award. General ORders issued by a command usually solve the probles of campaign stars & personal decorations. SECNAV 1650 (I think that's the right number) also will tell you if your unit rated any citations while you were assigned to that unit.


I wrote NPRC and asked for a DD215 to add the RVN Cr of Gal, and RVN Civil Actions awards - I got back a copy of my 214 which didn't have them to start with. It had the gedunk, VSM with EGA, 2 stars, VCM, and CAR. So it's like butting your head against the wall.

[Doc Hickman]

Being with the Marines do we rate the same awards as them? I was with 1/4 on westpac 92 & 94 recieved my SWA in 92 got a star in 94 for the second tour. My Marines that were on their first float in 94 also received a star due to the fact that we had left the Sandbox to go to Somalia only to be called back a month later for Operation Vigilent Warrior. Should I not rate a third star then? Also If the MUE(SOC) that we were attatched to or the ship we we're on recieved medals would we rate them as well? I'm missing my Navy expert Pistol on my DD-214 (I can't tell you how many times I Qualled for that damn thing) how could i get that added, and do they check for any new awards that were given for campaigns that I may no be aware of? I see that Somalia rates a Humanitarian now.

[DOC_Newt]

Go to this web site to check what awards you and your past units rate;

https://ucstcdom02.ahf.nmci.navy.mil...Page)/home.htm

As for embarked personnel I’m not sure what the instruction is but if your unit received an award and the ship received an award for the same thing at the same time then no you don't get it twice for the same action.

[8404]

Doc_Newt the link doesn' work.

[DOC_Newt]

oh my bad that is the link that only works on DOD computers try this one

https://awards.navy.mil/awards/webbas01.nsf/(vwWebPage)/home.htm?OpenDocument

[DeeDee]

https://awards.navy.mil/awards/webbas01.nsf/(vwWebPage)/home.htm?OpenDocument

if that one doesn't work try this one :) I got a message about site certificates with the first link and it took me to a blank page but this link seems to work better for me http://awards.navy.mil/ seems to be a good one too. Hey whatever one works for you go for it LOL

[8404]

oh my bad that is the link that only works on DOD computers try this one

https://awards.navy.mil/awards/webbas01.nsf/(vwWebPage)/home.htm?OpenDocument (https://awards.navy.mil/awards/webbas01.nsf/%28vwWebPage%29/home.htm?OpenDocument)

Thanks Doc

2nd one worked okay.

DeeDee's works too. NDAWs ooraH!

[MAWDoc]

Being with the Marines do we rate the same awards as them? I was with 1/4 on westpac 92 & 94 recieved my SWA in 92 got a star in 94 for the second tour. My Marines that were on their first float in 94 also received a star due to the fact that we had left the Sandbox to go to Somalia only to be called back a month later for Operation Vigilent Warrior. Should I not rate a third star then? Also If the MUE(SOC) that we were attatched to or the ship we we're on recieved medals would we rate them as well? I'm missing my Navy expert Pistol on my DD-214 (I can't tell you how many times I Qualled for that damn thing) how could i get that added, and do they check for any new awards that were given for campaigns that I may no be aware of? I see that Somalia rates a Humanitarian now.

Similar to all other campaign medals, the Southwest Asia Campaign Medal is not defined by subsequent awards - there is only one. Bronze stars affixed indicate participation in various campaign phases, not multiple trips. So, from your post, and the times that you were there, your SWA should have only 1 Bronze Star, and the FMF Combat Distinguishing Device on it. A maximum of 3 stars can be worn on the ribbon/medal, and would require you to have been there for:

Operation Desert Shield (2 August 1990-16 January 1991)
Operation Desert Storm (17 Jan 1991-12 April 1991)
Operation Southern/Northern Watch (13 April 1991-30 November 1995)

You'll frequently see 3 stars with Marines and Corpsmen, as they were there for the buildup, Liberation of Kuwait, and for some time after in retrograde. Going back a year or so later for ONW/OSW does not rate another star, as you cannot wear more than 3 on the ribbon.

Please read the excert from the Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual (SECNAVINST 1650.1H) pasted below.

8. Southwest Asia Service Medal
a. Authorization. E.O. 12754 of 12 March 1991.
b. Eligibility Requirements
(1) Awarded to members of the Armed Forces of the United States, who participated in or directly supported military operations in Southwest Asia, or in the surrounding areas, between 2 August 1990and 30November 1995(Operations DESERT SHIELD, DESERT STORM, and the Southwest Asia Ceasefire Campaign) .
(2) Individuals must have served in one or more of the following areas: the Persian Gulf, Red Sea, Gulf of Oman, Gulf of Aden, that portion of the Arabian Sea that lies north of 10 degrees north latitude, and west of 68degrees east longitude, as well as the total land areas of Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar and United Arab Emirates.
(3) Individuals serving in Israel, Egypt, Turkey, Syria, and Jordan (including the airspace and territorial waters thereof), between 17 January 1991and 28 February 1991, shall also be eligible for award of this medal. They must have directly supported combat operations.
(4) Embassy security guard personnel are eligible for the period 2 August 1990to 11August 1991.
(5) Specific eligibility criteria for award of the Southwest Asia Service Medal (SWASM) require that a service member must be:
(a) Attached to or regularly serving, for one or more days, with an organization participating in ground/shore military operations.
(b) Attached to or regularly serving, for one or more days, aboard a naval vessel directly supporting military operations.
(c) Actually participate as a crewmember in one or more aerial flights, directly supporting military operations in the areas designated above.
(d) Serve on temporary duty for 30 consecutive or 60 nonconsecutive days. These time limitations may be waived by commanding officers for individuals participating in actual
combat operations.
c. Awarding Authority. Commanding officers are authorized to award the SWASM.
d. Engagement Stars. Three service stars are the maximum authorized for the SWASM:
(1) Defense of Saudi Arabia: 2 Aug 90 to 16 Jan 91.
(2) Liberation and Defense of Kuwait: 17 Jan 91 to 11 Apr 91.
(3) Southwest Asia Ceasefire Campaign: 12 Apr 91 to 30 Nov 95.

[Doc Hickman]

Really?!? what earns me the EGA? We were told by our LPO No on that too at the time because no one shot at us. Would that mean that I would rate it on my FMF ribbon as well? What about my Armed Forces Expiditionary?

[Doc Hickman]

are we authorized to wear unit awards given to them while we were attatached to them while with the Marines

[jkeasling]

I had the same problem. My unit in Vietnam was awarded a PUC, No one told me when I left the Navy. I found it out on the 'Net. I finally got the ribbon but never got a revised DD214. I just forgot digging anymore.

[MAWDoc]

Really?!? what earns me the EGA? We were told by our LPO No on that too at the time because no one shot at us. Would that mean that I would rate it on my FMF ribbon as well? What about my Armed Forces Expiditionary?

Attached to a Marine unit in a combat operation. You don't need to get a Combat Action Ribbon for the EGA - it has its own criteria. The distinction is for Navy personnel to identify that it was a combat op, and that it was with the FMF, not aboard a ship or with a Navy/Army/Air Force command.

Yes, it goes on the AFEM, GWOTEM, ICM, SWASM, VSM too. A GWOTEM in Cuba, for example, would not rate the device, while a trip to Afghanistan with a MEU would.

[Doc Hickman]

So do I just request them on my SF180 then? Or would they just automaticly add it to my record when I request my awards?

[MAWDoc]

So do I just request them on my SF180 then? Or would they just automaticly add it to my record when I request my awards?

If you want anything, you've got to do the work. Talk to your PLR/PSD and have them add it to your Page 4. Otherwise, get it onto your DD214 if you're no longer in. Without looking, so I could be wrong, and someone correct me if I am, it would go on a DD215 (addendum).

The criteria for the device is in SECNAVINST 1650.1H Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual, and shouldn't be questioned with documentation of the deployment, and the unit to which you were attached.

Good luck!

[Doc Hickman]

Awesome! Thanx Chief!