EFMB Expert Field Medical Badge

[0311_DoC]

Some of the Corpsman as well as some of the Nurses are being allowed to compete and tryout for the (EFMB) Expert Field Medical Badge which is a highly coveted pin / badgeto get within the Army Medic community. Now it has come to my attention that we asNavy are not allowed to wear this pin if we pass all the trials, but the Air Force is. My question is there somewhere we can investigate why or if we can put in a request to get the policy changed? This badge or pin is not an easy item to acquire.The Army has only 10-15 % of each outing passing the trials. Can you please advise me where to start asking or who to send correspondence to?

VR

HM2 (FMF) DiGaetano

Currently stationed at LRMC Army Hospital Germany

[Da-Chief]

Run it through your Chain, who then runs it through their Chain etc.. etc. etc..

Look this is the way it has always been, We are not allowed to wear some of their stuf fand vice a versa..

I hate to put it to you but it is not a warfare device that is "SERVICE WIDE", and I don't think the Navy will bite on this one.

"BUT"

You never know unless you run it up the flag pole..

Never say Never, I have been proven wrong quite a few times in 23 years..

;-)

Start with a Point Paper and run it up from there, I can tell you that it will not be a "OVERNIGHT" process, and could take months if not years..

V/R
HMC

[Corpsman77]

In my brief time in the Navy I've learned that it's not what is on your arm or your chest. It's about what is in your heart.

Sure, it'd be "cool" to have one and you could brag about it at the watercooler. IMHO, the novelty would wear off fast.

[Da-Chief]

Corpsman77,

You will understand when you earn you first Warfare pin, or when you are advanced to Petty Officer. It is a way to show your peers what you have done.

I know when I look at a Sailor who walks into my department and they are a HM2 and they only have a 3 ribbon bar with 3 ribbons and no warfare device, I will help them but probably not as much as the person who walks in with a stack on their chest and have been through the shit and a warfare device etc.. It shows me their dedication to the Navy and to their shipmates.

It's a identity thing. If you earn it you should wear it, but You don't want to start looking like a 3rd world dictator either.

Or look like the Army when they grad from boot Camp and already have "3" ribbons. I know having served with the Marines and the Navy, it is hard to earn what we got.

My own opinion.

V/R
HMC

[Corpsman77]

Alright, Chief, I can understand that.

[0311_DoC]

Well I have my FMF Warfare already, and believe me that was an awesom feeling putting that on. But this EFMB is all field stuff, there is an O course with the litter , calling in a casevac, NBC stuff, etc... its all OOORAHHH... then u finish it up with a 12 mile hump... its quite an accomplishment crossing that finish line in the propper amount of time. Like i mentioned in the original thread, this is the daddy of them all for the Medic community. I think it would speak leaps and bounds if a Corpsman finished the course and able to put that on. And being that I am currently at an Army post right now, just imagine the respect factor that i completed one of thier most grueling courses. its no different then when a Gunny won the Ranger challenge in 03 :)

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

0311_DoC wrote: the (EFMB) Expert Field Medical Badge which is a highly coveted pin / badgeto get within the Army Medic community. Now it has come to my attention that we asNavy are not allowed to wear this pin if we pass all the trials, but the Air Force is. My question is there somewhere we can investigate why or if we can put in a request to get the policy changed? .....this is the daddy of them all for the Medic community.
I would have to disagree with you on that one 0311_Doc....

First off, I believe you would agree that the Army's "Combat Medical Badge (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Badges/CombatMedicalBadges.htm)" holds a higher place than the peacetime "Expert Field Medical Badge (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Badges/expert%20field%20medical%20badge.htm)". To answer your questions though, I would think that when addressing uniform issues like wearing badges and changing uniform policies, you would start your research by checking the Uniform Regulations (http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/508/unireg/uregMenu.html).

Chapter 5 - Why can't we wear it?
"The listing below constitutes those breast insignia, alphabetically by category, authorized for wear on the naval uniform. Breast or qualification insignia of other services shall not be worn. Breast or qualification insignia of other nations shall not be worn on the naval uniforms unless specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Navy."

Chapter 1 - How do we change the policy?
"Forward recommendations to be considered by the Navy Uniform Board through the chain of command (Command Master Chief or Command Senior Chief, Commanding Officer, Immediate Superior In Command, and Type Commander) with appropriate comments and recommendations, to President, Navy Uniform Board, Deputy Chief of Naval Operations (N131U), 2 Navy Annex, Room 3024, Washington, DC 20370-5000. "

While you're at it, can you ask them to authorize my foreign jump wings, OpTelic campaign medal (UK's version of ICM) and to allow me to wear both my USMC marksmanship badges & USN marksmanship medals at the same time?

A cool badge for an 0311 type Doc (ie 8404) to earn that can be worn on both the USMC & USN uniforms and gets a ton of respect from the grunts is the Rifle Squad Competition Badge (http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/mcub/library/images/URFigs/Fig5-8w.gif) (aka Super Squad (http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/200435163041)Badge). (Not to mention that you go to DC and dine with the Commandant too.) As for the other stuff, I may not be able to wear it on my uniform, but it is a great bullet on an Eval and will look good mounted in my shadow box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_box)when I retire.

IF you are with an Army command, check Army Reg 600-8-22 (http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r600_8_22.pdf)to see if you are eligible for the EFMB and go for it. When you earn it, (1) put it in your next Eval, (2) make sure it is documented in your Service Record, (3) get it in your DD214 when you separate, and display it on your office 'I Love Me' wall in a nice picture frame with the certificate.... (plus decal on your car, or patch on your war bag.)


As for Corpsman77's comments I do agree that it takes more than just rank and medals to make a man. During my career, I have run across a few who wore more stripes or gold belt buckles but performed about the level of whale dung. I have also run across deployment dodging ribbon hunters and discovered that these are also the types who are most likely to "brag" about their fruit salad while embellishing their achievements. However, I have been fortunate not to cross paths with these types very often. Generally speaking, most warriors are not like that and quietly do their duty with pride. In turn, they wear their medals with pride and the "novelty" never wears off. Wearing what you have earned is not bragging and gives a hint at the person inside the uniform. This is just one reason why a person with screwed up ribbons pisses me off so much and I challenge racks that don't seem right to me.

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

Since we usually play with the Army & foreign forces, this is some of what I give our Det's when they deploy. In case you or any of your Marines and Corpsmen are attached to (or under operational control of) an Army unit engaged in combat ops...

[] "Service members from the other U.S. Armed Forces....may be considered for award of the CIB."
[] CMB is for all "medical personnel assigned or attached to or under operational control of any ground Combat Arms units"
[] CAB "may be awarded to members from the other U.S. Armed Forces...assigned to a U.S. Army unit"

Like I said, it can't be worn on either the USN or USMC uniforms, but it is a good Eval bullet and looks good in the shadow box.


REFERENCE:
Combat Infantryman Badge
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/badges/combat%20infantryman%20badges.htm

III. AWARD ELIGIBILITY:

(4) On or after 18 September 2001:

a. A soldier must be an Army infantry or special forces officer (SSI 11 or 18) in the grade of colonel or below, or an Army enlisted soldier or warrant officer with an infantry or special forces MOS, who has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an infantry, ranger or special forces unit of brigade, regimental or smaller size during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat, to close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires.

b. A soldier must be personally present and under fire while serving in an assigned infantry or Special Forces primary duty, in a unit engaged in active ground combat to close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires.

c. Soldiers possessing MOS of 18D (Special Forces Medical Sergeant) who satisfactorily perform special forces duties while assigned or attached to a special forces unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size during any period such unit is engaged in active ground combat may be awarded the CIB. These soldiers must have been personally present and engaged in active ground combat, to close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires. Retroactive awards under these criteria are not authorized for service prior to 18 September 2001.

d. Those soldiers possessing MOS of 18D who qualify for award of the CMB from 18 September 2001 to the 3 June 2005, will remain qualified for the badge. Upon request any such soldier may be awarded the CIB instead of the CMB. In such instances, the soldier must submit a request through the chain of command to the CG, U.S. Army Human Resources Command, ATTN: AHRC-PDO-PA, 200 Stovall Street, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471 for conversion of the CMB to the CIB.

e. Service members from the other U.S. Armed Forces and foreign military (infantry and Special Forces equivalents) assigned or attached as a member of a U.S. Army infantry or Special Forces unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size may be considered for award of the CIB. All basic requirements as listed above must be met. Retroactive awards under these criteria are not authorized for service prior to 18 September 2001.

(5) Awards will not be made to General Officers nor to members of headquarters companies of units larger in size than brigade.

(6) Special eligibility requirements by geographic area are listed in Army Regulation 600-8-22.


Combat Medical Badge
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Badges/CombatMedicalBadges.htm

III. AWARD ELIGIBILITY: The following medical personnel, assigned or attached by appropriate orders to an infantry unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size, or to a medical unit of company or smaller size, organic to an infantry unit of brigade or smaller size, during any period the infantry unit is engaged in actual ground combat are eligible for award of the badge, provided they are personally present and under fire during such ground combat:

(4) Subsequent to 18 September 2001 – Medical personnel assigned or attached to or under operational control of any ground Combat Arms units (not to include members assigned or attached to Aviation units) of brigade or smaller size, who satisfactorily performed medical duties while the unit is engaged in active ground combat, provided they are personally present and under fire. Retroactive awards are not authorized for service prior to 18 September 2001.

[Note: "Medical personnel" includes the Navy Medical Department (Captains and below), the Air Force Medical Service (Colonels and below)]


Combat Action Badge
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Badges/CombatActionBadge.htm

III. AWARD ELIGIBILITY: The Combat Action Badge (CAB) may be awarded by any commander delegated authority by the Secretary of the Army during wartime or the CG, U.S. Army Human Resources Command and will be announced in permanent orders.

(1) The requirements for award of the CAB are Branch and MOS immaterial. Assignment to a Combat Arms unit or a unit organized to conduct close or offensive combat operations, or performing offensive combat operations is not required to qualify for the CAB. However, it is not intended to award all soldiers who serve in a combat zone or imminent danger area.

(2) Specific Eligibility Requirements:

a. May be awarded to any soldier.

b. Soldier must be performing assigned duties in an area where hostile fire pay or imminent danger pay is authorized.

c. Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement.

d. Soldier must not be assigned/attached to a unit that would qualify the soldier for the CIB/CMB.

(3) May be awarded to members from the other U.S. Armed Forces and foreign soldiers assigned to a U.S. Army unit, provided they meet the above criteria.

(4) Award of the CAB is authorized from 18 September 2001 to a date to be determined. Award for qualifying service in any previous conflict is not authorized.

(5) Subsequent awards:

a. Only one CAB may be awarded during a qualifying period.

b. Second and third awards of the CAB for subsequent qualifying periods will be indicated by superimposing one and two stars respectively, centered at the top of the badge between the points of the oak wreath.

(6) Retroactive awards for the CAB are not authorized prior to 18 September 2001, applications (to include supporting documentation) for retroactive awards of the CAB will be forwarded through the first two star general in the chain of command to CG, U.S. Army Human Resources Command, ATTN: AHRC-PDO-PA, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471.

(7) Wear policy is contained in Army Regulation 670-1.

(8) Soldiers may be awarded the CIB, CMB and CAB for the same qualifying period, provided the criteria for each badge is met. However, subsequent awards of the same badge within the same qualifying period are not authorized.

[0311_DoC]

HMC-FMF-PJ wrote: 0311_DoC wrote: the (EFMB) Expert Field Medical Badge which is a highly coveted pin / badgeto get within the Army Medic community. Now it has come to my attention that we asNavy are not allowed to wear this pin if we pass all the trials, but the Air Force is. My question is there somewhere we can investigate why or if we can put in a request to get the policy changed? .....this is the daddy of them all for the Medic community.
I would have to disagree with you on that one 0311_Doc....

First off, I believe you would agree that the Army's "Combat Medical Badge (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Badges/CombatMedicalBadges.htm)" holds a higher place than the peacetime "Expert Field Medical Badge (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Badges/expert%20field%20medical%20badge.htm)".

I was only qouteing a 91W (Medic) who said that. he said if your in combat you pretty much just get one. Where as the EFMB you have to work your tail off in a bunch of tasks to get it, and there is a high fail rate for those that try.

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

That is how it is supposed to be with the FMF insignia, unfortunately some commands do not maintain the same high level of standards that other commands do. It is always annoying and frustrating to see a loafing idiot wearing a pin while a top-notch hard-charger goes without because one qualifier/panel said "close enough" and the other one said "wasn't perfect." I assume other communities (SW, SS, AW) have the same problems. Fortunatelywhen someone transfers in to your unit you can address the matter during requalification and at least ensure the highest standards are being maintained at your command. The disqualification process should also be employed for deployment dodgers and problem child’s who fail to "stand out as significant contributors to the U.S. Marine Corps warfighting mission."

OPNAVINST 1414.4 has all the details, but here are a few excerpts:

"Platform specific re-qualification must be completed within 12 months of assignment to another FMF platform by all enlisted personnel E-1 and above."

"FMF qualified enlisted personnel who transfer to another unit unrelated to the FMF will be required to re-qualify upon returning to the FMF."

"When an individual transfers on PCS orders between U.S. Marine Corps commands of the same type, the individual must redemonstrate general knowledge of the command’s overall organization, mission, assets, employment, combat systems, Marine Corps battle skills techniques, basic equipment, and through an oral demonstration of knowledge. Upon a satisfactory demonstration of knowledge, a recommendation will be made to the Commanding Officer for final re-qualification."

"Members previously qualified shall be disqualified by their commanding officers if" .... "Refusal to accept or perform duties while assigned to the U.S. Marine Corps command."

[Budo-Bill]

I am one of the nurses who are stationed at Longstuhl Regional Medical (LRMC) in Germany with HM2 (FMF) DiGaetano. We are pursuing the opportunity to train and test for the Army's Expert Field Medical Badge (EFMB). I spoke with COL Gamble, the CO of LRMC. He stated that he was "checking into" if the Navy could wear the EFMB. I explained that I am more concerned about the training. As the OIC of Cincinnati, I look for every opportunity to get my unit out of the reserve center and into the field for some practical training. To this end, I am always looking for subject matter experts, and pertainant curriculum. The EFMB training will avail me of that first hand. However, the buzz word for many recent missions has been "interoperability" between the branches of our US military. This deployment is a perfect example--Navy personnel are working under an Army command. I pointed out the positive impact of having Navy Corpsman, Nurses, and MD's show up with the EFMB on their chest. It would immediately convey the message: "We respect your training, and are willing to play by your rules, in your back yard." There are many other nurses and corpsman in our group who have various badges (jump wings, infantry, etc...) which they are "not authorized to wear." This undermines the mission parameters of interoperability between the branches.

HM2 (FMF) DiGaetano is spot on. He is a hard-charger who leads by example and makes the rest of us look good.

V/R

LT J.

[Da-Chief]

Sir,

Yup I understand but as the regs state as of right now we cannot wear it. But Like HMC above stated there is a chain to run this through.

I know before you left that the 3 services were supposed to merge "MEDICAL" wise, this has changed since you left as the Air Force put the kabosh on it all. We are still supposedly going to Brooks Army Med Center in San Antonio, as I work at NHCS in GreatLakes and that isstill on, (At least for now) but us merging has been cancled as far as a medical unit.

I know the Army was very receptive with the Navy on this point, probably the reason you are all over there.

I would run it up the flag pole with the guise like you pointed out. Who knows?

On anohter note, thanks for dropping in and standing up for your HM2, This is not something all officers do. I am sure he appreciates it as I know as a CPO I like seeing Officers taking care of their own. Sir, are you a Mustang? Prior Enlisted?



V/R

HMC(AW) Crone

[Budo-Bill]

Chief,

I appreciate you guidance. I know we are not authorized to wear the EFMB, but there are still advantages to "going for it" anyway. First, and foremost is the opportunity for training. As HMC-FMF-PJ wrote: "it takes more than just rank and medals to make a man." There is a certain style to having the knowledge and training even if you don't overtly display it. This is why I plan to go for it.

Then, there is the "in your face" factor of ging for it, or even earning it, when you can't wear the pin.. ...OooooRahhhh!

Finally, there is the "ball is in your court" impact of earning it under an Army command, then saying: "gee wiz, too bad it is not important enough for us to wear."

BTW; As to your query: "Sir, are you a Mustang? Prior Enlisted?" I am a newbe Junior Officer with no prior service, so I have 20 years to look forward to... ...I plan to make the best of it. I owe my sense of leadership and integrity to my Karate Sensei; after 25 years, I guess I learned something..

[HMC-FMF-PJ]

Go for it! Definitely!

We do a lot of work with other services and foreign countries. As such, many of our Marines and Corpsmen have qualified for various insignia that we are not allowed to wear on our uniforms. However, with the aid of framed certificates, decals, and embroidered patches, there is little doubt as to whom rates what among those that wish to advertise it.

Riggers, Jumpmasters, Master Parachutists, Pathfinders, Air Assault, Freefall, Air Crew, Divers, Weapon Qual, Marksman, Foreign Jump Wings and insignia, plus the misc schools & jobs (ie SERE, Drill Sgt, EMT, MilMo/MMOC, HALO, blah, blah) and foreign campaign medals or unit awards...

Whether it is hanging on the wall of their office, sewn on their gear bag, or stuck to the rear window of their vehicle and just about anything else you can think of -- people have ways of showing the unique atta-boys they want to show. Others prefer to be a sleeper and reveal the info when desired or remain anonymous unless required.

I totally agree with your point about training. It is not only the EFMB testing, but all the pre-test studying and practice too. I think soldiers would likely respond well to sailors earning the EFMB; however, Navy leaders need to ensure the sailors they send portray a positive image or the whole thing could backfire. When someone does step up for the EFMB challenge, they need to know that failure really isn't an option. It doesn't matter if the Army has an 80% failure rate, I would expect my Doc's to have an 80% success rate.

When a sailor does poorly at a Navy event, it is on the sailor and maybe the command. When a Corpsman does poorly at an Army event, soldiers don't see an individual sailor -- they tend to paint with a broad brush of derision. The entire command. All Corpsmen. All Navy. It reflects upon us all. Therefore, when someone volunteers to take the EFMB test, they are also volunteering to study more, train longer, and work harder to ensure success. After all they are representing more than just themselves.It is not just a case of "Oh, I'll give it a try and see how I do..." No! It is I will work my butt off and make it happen so I do not embarrass myself, my command, and Navy Medicine!

I'd encourage everyone to go for it, but I'd also require things like: Navy warfare device first (ie FMF insignia), Excellent or Outstanding PRT, within Body Fat standards, professionalism (demeanor & appearance), significant progress or completion of Navy requirements (NEC, Advancement, watch standing, etc.). In other words, I would have my Doc's take care of Navy business first and then earn the right to risk my reputation and the reputation of Navy Medicine before I authorized them to pursue the EFMB with the Army. The hard-charging cream of the crop will still rise to the occasion, some mid-level performers will be encouraged to improve, the less motivated will not embarrass us with half hearted attempts, and the EFMB will mean that much more for those who earn it.

At least that is my two cents...

I say make it happen.

[Da-Chief]

Hmmm.. sounds to me like what I went through to get my wings..

test, Board (Long one!) etc.. Was dragged around planes like a rag. Hell I to this day can check Hydraulic fluid on a P-3 with my eyes closed. Walk wing to wing etc..

;-)

Later

HMC

[Doc Lara]

No. The Navy shouldn't have to wear that badge - too much pride. The FMF badge is enough. If anything, there should be a secondary and tertiary recognition for advancement in FMF qualifications (like earning a star and a second star on the badge) to show further advancement in practical applications and leadership in the FMF community. However, you can wear the FMF pin should you decide to join the Army.

Doc Lara